Time for a new HVAC 5 ton - Help!

[Sigarms]

In regard to advertised efficiency and features. I can buy 2 and almost 3 Goodman units for the price of the Trane. It is a no brainer. I have goodman and Trane at the office.

Need to do a blast test on ductwork before anyone promises any type of efficiency. Worst thing you can do is throw multi stage equipment on 20 year plus old ductwork.

Personally, if you're looking at the compressor warranty, seems to be the same on the Goodman 16 vs 18 SEER and assuming it's older existing ductwork, would look at the 16 SEER price.

That said, lifetime compressor warranty NEVER works out the way you think it does if your compressor fails after 12 years. Doing this for over 20 years, seen it. That said, generally, homeowners get fried with all the possible outcomes and what could come out of their pocket because the compressor warranty is NEVER EVER free to the homeowner.

 

[ultrarunner]

ANY brand can be bought by a DIY. Goodman however has a higher percentage IMO due to distribution.

I'll let you in on a secret, the Japanese (who have since bought out Goodman) absolutely despise Goodman. Give Daikin time, things will change IMHO.

Daiken equals the worst experience for me... mostly all Carrier and some nearly 30 years old as far as HVAC

I hope it was a one off experience so not trying to condemn the whole company...

Did a like for like Carrier Replacement with a Daikon drop in... well, it was not a drop in as advertised... but OK.

While the unit was still under warranty the coil developed a leak and lost the compressor.

Unit was down 6 weeks in July/August waiting for coil to arrive from overseas...

So yes... they did furnish the parts at no cost but I have tenants that ended up not renewing over this.

Carrier has always had what I needed... even total replacement package units in 72 hours... for a price of course.

 

[RalphVa]

We replaced a 5 ton Trane unit several years ago. The Trane often ran for short periods of time, and was like a train starting up. This clued me in that it was perhaps too big. Yes, our HVAC people took measurements of the house and info on insulation, etc. and concluded that 4 ton unit would do. Went with a 4 ton Carrier. It runs a much longer period of time in need of lots of heat or AC. More efficient that way, plus it had some more efficiency built in via newer technology.

A few years later (think only may 3 ago), we replaced the 2 1/2 ton top story unit with a 2 ton Carrier. It, too, it more efficient and very quiet. It, in particularly, will heat the upper story without having to mess with the heat coil backup, which causes problems with the diesel generator, to be sure it stays off, etc. Keep it locked out with the thermostat.

Both these ran close to $10k installed, e.g. with new inside variable speed fan, etc.

Ralph

 

[RalphVa]

Only trouble we've had with the 2 Carriers is the motor on the variable speed fan had to be replaced on the 2 ton unit. Nothing on the 4 ton.

Around 6 years ago, we put in ductless Fujitsu units (2 inside; 1 outside) in the basement. They're the most efficient of the lot. No backup coils. No service needed. Don't run them all the time, just when I want some added heat or AC down here. These units would be the most efficient, outside of a geo unit, for a house. One outside unit can supply up to around 7 inside units. Just need refrigerant lines running to/from each inside unit. Would be great in a house with no room for the duct work.

Of course, the most efficient route is to go geothermal if you have space for either another well or for the underground lines running about. Unfortunately, at this house/property on a piece of pie with the house and all at the point of the pie and the rest going downhill to creek bottom land, there isn't any space for such.

Ralph

 

[Sigarms]

Daiken equals the worst experience for me... mostly all Carrier and some nearly 30 years old as far as HVAC

I hope it was a one off experience so not trying to condemn the whole company...

Did a like for like Carrier Replacement with a Daikon drop in... well, it was not a drop in as advertised... but OK.

While the unit was still under warranty the coil developed a leak and lost the compressor.

Unit was down 6 weeks in July/August waiting for coil to arrive from overseas...

So yes... they did furnish the parts at no cost but I have tenants that ended up not renewing over this.

Carrier has always had what I needed... even total replacement package units in 72 hours... for a price of course.

Are we talking about Daikin before or after they bought out Goodman? Honestly, the japs I don't think they had a clue what they bought per warranty plans when they bought out Goodman. The biggest advantage Daikin has is they're actually manufacturing mini splits (VRF commercial systems) in the US now. Daikin is still trying to figure out how to go to market with their unitary split product line vs Amana (higher end Goodman) and Goodman. Primary reason why Trane and Mitsubishi are now together and Fujitsu and Rheem/Ruud are together. It's a race to combine mini splits with unitary split product. Daikin has the inside track IMO due to their facility in Texas (we call it the "Death Star" LOL). No one else can come close at this point. All that said, I wouldn't put a Goodman or Daikin in my own home at this point in time (2 of my 3 split systems I'm certain no one has even ever heard of before, it's not the equipment, but the install).

Carrier is going down the tubes due to distribution. Carrier sold out for distribution. Kind of two seperate divisions now. I won't name the buyer, but anyone in the business knows who it is.

 

[AllDodge]

Warranty all the same

With an Asure Extended Service Agreement*, you’ll have your choice of 5-years, 10-years, or even up to 99-years (compressor only) of worry-free comfort without the unexpected cost of replacement parts or labor expenses should your Amana® brand equipment require service. If a repair is needed, an Authorized Asure Dealer will respond promptly and make repairs with quality Amana brand parts.

Industry Leading Warranty For Heat Pumps | Amana-Hac

 

[kenmac]

Need to do a blast test on ductwork before anyone promises any type of efficiency. Worst thing you can do is throw multi stage equipment on 20 year plus old ductwork.

Personally, if you're looking at the compressor warranty, seems to be the same on the Goodman 16 vs 18 SEER and assuming it's older existing ductwork, would look at the 16 SEER price.

That said, lifetime compressor warranty NEVER works out the way you think it does if your compressor fails after 12 years. Doing this for over 20 years, seen it. That said, generally, homeowners get fried with all the possible outcomes and what could come out of their pocket because the compressor warranty is NEVER EVER free to the homeowner.

Yeah, not gonna get much efficiency rating with air leaks in the duct work.
Duct blasting is mandatory here, on any new install,or replacement. And, the customer is provided with a printed report of the results.
Duct Insulation requirements are much thicker now, than yrs past

Will be interesting how the compressor warrant plays out. As they say. ''if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is''

 

[Sigarms]

Will be interesting how the compressor warrant plays out. As they say. ''if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is''

1 - No realizes that in general, if you can find a OEM compressor past 15 years in age for replacement, you'll be lucky.
2 - No one reads the "pro rated" fine print in lieu of a new compressor per #1.
3 - No one understands the R410A, just like R22 is being phased out, and that compressor are dependent on both speficiffic refrigerant along with oil.
4 - No one generally takes into account the ratio between volume of the coil surface area between the indoor and outdoor coil to achieve SEER rating and that genearlly, manufacturers require new comonents to current systems still be AHRI rated.
5 - No one understands the pro rated part about needing a WHOLE new system "under warranty" due #3 and #4
6 - No one understands that the lifetime compressor warranty does NOT include labor.
7 - No one understands the fine print about who is doing in the install and how the equipment is bought (being enforced more and more now due to internet sales).

Just because something is mandatory by the government doesn't mean everyone is going to do it

 

[AllDodge]

"No one" pretty broad based statement there

 

[Sigarms]

"No one" pretty broad based statement there

You're the one promoting the "Industry leading warranty for heat pumps":thumbsup::laughing:

I'll be the first one to tell anyone that the government has made it harder (if not impossible) for manufacturers of HVAC equipment to make equipment as reliable as it was even 20 years ago (I'm kind of old school in that the more parts you have, particularly electronic, you increase the odds of issues over time), added HVAC systems are not plug and play. That said, I could be wrong on the exact year, but it's funny that it was Goodman who first came out the the 10 year compressor AND parts warranty about 15 years ago. Before that, HVAC equipment was only 5 years on parts and compressor. For some reason, Americans equate qualtiy with the warranty which isn't always the case from my own experience.

FYI, Daikin owns Goodman and Amana. It's Amana that generally pushes the lifetime compressor warranty (particularly with single stage compressors), but it is avilalbe with Goodman 2 stage compressor equipment as well)

 

[ultrarunner]

1 - No realizes that in general, if you can find a OEM compressor past 15 years in age for replacement, you'll be lucky.
2 - No one reads the "pro rated" fine print in lieu of a new compressor per #1.
3 - No one understands the R410A, just like R22 is being phased out, and that compressor are dependent on both speficiffic refrigerant along with oil.
4 - No one generally takes into account the ratio between volume of the coil surface area between the indoor and outdoor coil to achieve SEER rating and that genearlly, manufacturers require new comonents to current systems still be AHRI rated.
5 - No one understands the pro rated part about needing a WHOLE new system "under warranty" due #3 and #4
6 - No one understands that the lifetime compressor warranty does NOT include labor.
7 - No one understands the fine print about who is doing in the install and how the equipment is bought (being enforced more and more now due to internet sales).

Just because something is mandatory by the government doesn't mean everyone is going to do it

At one of the buildings I have 14 Carrier Package units of various sizes... some with two compressors most with economizers... economizers have been a problem.

Of the lot 11 are still running the original compressors... all installed in 1995...

On my 100% outside air handler there are two large compressors... the small one was replaced under warranty within 30 days of start-up and again replaced at year 21... the larger one has been running/cycling 24/7 since 1995... did have one coil repair... but so far so good.

In 2010 I was told equipment was on borrowed time... the built up unit runs a lot to keep Operating rooms at 66-68 with 100% outside air.

Some of my medical vacuum pumps which also run 24/7 have more than 60,000 hours with only oil and filter changes... BUSCH pumps... Germany I believe.

I just wish my Heat Pump in Olympia was as reliable!

Not sure if it is a longevity factor but most equipment is 3 phase 480v

 

[AllDodge]

Not promoting, just fyi

My hvac buddy has installed and has replaced 1 unit so far to date for compressor failure under warranty. After 4 years running and Amana/Goodman replaced the whole unit, not just the compressor.

Don't care which unit someone uses, I use to have only Trane/American Standard, but now only use what my buddy says is best

You have all the knowledge and we should only listen to you :thumbsup:

 

[ultrarunner]

Are we talking about Daikin before or after they bought out Goodman? Honestly, the japs I don't think they had a clue what they bought per warranty plans when they bought out Goodman. The biggest advantage Daikin has is they're actually manufacturing mini splits (VRF commercial systems) in the US now. Daikin is still trying to figure out how to go to market with their unitary split product line vs Amana (higher end Goodman) and Goodman. Primary reason why Trane and Mitsubishi are now together and Fujitsu and Rheem/Ruud are together. It's a race to combine mini splits with unitary split product. Daikin has the inside track IMO due to their facility in Texas (we call it the "Death Star" LOL). No one else can come close at this point. All that said, I wouldn't put a Goodman or Daikin in my own home at this point in time (2 of my 3 split systems I'm certain no one has even ever heard of before, it's not the equipment, but the install).

Carrier is going down the tubes due to distribution. Carrier sold out for distribution. Kind of two seperate divisions now. I won't name the buyer, but anyone in the business knows who it is.

The Daikin swap was maybe 4-5 years ago... this is why it was under warranty... time goes by faster than I perceive sometimes.

I have been impressed at how Carrier over the last 25 years has been able to get me what I need... complete units, compressors...

My only Daikin experience started out with high hopes... great warranty, slight less expensive and promoted as drop in replacement for the carrier model...

The install required more work as the utility side was not the same... at start-up a blower vibration was noticeable... fan and motor replaced... then the condenser fan... still a little vibration but better... all was OK for several years... the end result was a warranty part replacement of coil and compressor... labor/refrigerant extra. I have often wondered if the vibration took a toll on the coil?

What hit home is the many weeks of summer waiting for the coil... it had to be made is the company response and it came from overseas... It got ugly towards the end with me being told to call each and every day for status... had I known it would have taken so long and the tenant would vacate I would have brought in temporary cooling or replaced the unit...

Again... this is my one and only Daikin experience and it simply could have been bad luck... it is also possible going forward Carrier won't be the same but 24 years of field work provides a good data base...

 

[ultrarunner]

Not promoting, just fyi

My hvac buddy has installed and has replaced 1 unit so far to date for compressor failure under warranty. After 4 years running and Amana/Goodman replaced the whole unit, not just the compressor.

Don't care which unit someone uses, I use to have only Trane/American Standard, but now only use what my buddy says is best

You have all the knowledge and we should only listen to you :thumbsup:

Totally unrelated but my family has always been Amana when it came to refrigerators and freezers... they are all still on the job at multiple locations with the upright freezers circa 1967... it was a bulk buy of 4 as Grandma bought one and thought all the kids should have one... I have inherited two of them!

 

[kenmac]

Just because something is mandatory by the government doesn't mean everyone is going to do it

I don't know how the HVAC board operates where you are. But here, all someone (customer) has to do here is call and complain to them for some reason, and that sets off an investigation, where a state HVAC inspector comes out to inspect the job. They want to see the duct blasting results, they check insulation, wiring, etc,. If the job isn't up to their specs. They call the contractor and let them know the violations and any fines they owe the state for those violations . They call it min. code requirements and if they aren't met. you are fined.

I don't even know what they do in other states but the HVAC board here is pretty strict. They mandated all contractors have their CEU's turned in by Nov. 1, of every year now, or face a fine of $125.00. In the past, you turned them in by Dec 31 of every year.

if the proper install producers have been followed (replaced /flushed old line set, etc) there are very few compressor failures.
You can bet, If they (Amana/Goodman, etc,) are giving lifetime compressor warranties. They will perform oil testing for contamination . If the oil is contaminated, Your warranty is VOID !

My brother is over training at Johnson controls VRF facility in TX. He says, They deny compressor warranties all the time due to improper install. Compressor oil contamination .

 

[Sigarms]

Not promoting, just fyi

My hvac buddy has installed and has replaced 1 unit so far to date for compressor failure under warranty. After 4 years running and Amana/Goodman replaced the whole unit, not just the compressor.

Don't care which unit someone uses, I use to have only Trane/American Standard, but now only use what my buddy says is best

You have all the knowledge and we should only listen to you :thumbsup:

1 - As noted, Amana is lifetime replacement with 15 SEER single stage systems and higher. Goodman you have to go to multi stage for lifetime unit replacement.
2 - Generally speaking, 4 year unit replacement can actually happen with various manufacturers, even though it's not a written warranty depending on the situation and actual documentation. The issue with a written warranty replacement is when the system is 10 years or older.
3 - You HVAC buddy is a lot smarter than me. I've been doing HVAC for a couple of decades now and I will NEVER tell someone that one equipment is better than another line. ANY manufacuturer has it's headaches, added that I've always promoted that equipment failures are generally 80% installation error on the contractors part. It's not the equipment, but the person installing the equipment.
4 - You may be promoting "for your information", and I'll I'm doing is giving more information to consider before you think a written warranty is a "catch all" on exactly what is going to be done.

As noted, if something sounds too good to be true, it generally is (or to that extent). Sooner or later manufacturers will be verifying the service the records on the HVAC equipment with some time of extended parts / labor plan. Generally, there is always some fine print that is a CYA.

 

[Sigarms]

I don't know how the HVAC board operates where you are. But here, all someone (customer) has to do here is call and complain to them for some reason, and that sets off an investigation, where a state HVAC inspector comes out to inspect the job.

Funny enough Ken, they do the exact same thing here in NC. Do you get a montly state board newsletter to see who just gets caught on breaking the rules?

Ask your brother if York is still using Hitachi for their VRF. They teamed up with Hitachi some time ago, but still use Gree (sp?) for their residential line, wich makes no sense to me.

As far as denying warranties, one of the biggest issues with residential warranties are only valid to the original homeowner. I've heard grumbles that some manufacturers have actually been looking denying claims because the house was sold.

 

[Sigarms]

At one of the buildings I have 14 Carrier Package units of various sizes... some with two compressors most with economizers... economizers have been a problem.

Of the lot 11 are still running the original compressors... all installed in 1995...

On my 100% outside air handler there are two large compressors... the small one was replaced under warranty within 30 days of start-up and again replaced at year 21... the larger one has been running/cycling 24/7 since 1995... did have one coil repair... but so far so good.

In 2010 I was told equipment was on borrowed time... the built up unit runs a lot to keep Operating rooms at 66-68 with 100% outside air.

Some of my medical vacuum pumps which also run 24/7 have more than 60,000 hours with only oil and filter changes... BUSCH pumps... Germany I believe.

I just wish my Heat Pump in Olympia was as reliable!

Not sure if it is a longevity factor but most equipment is 3 phase 480v

Just from personal experience... Generally speaking, commercial HVAC contractors who install equipment HAVE to be trained and generally know what they are doing if they are to gain new commercial business and keep "repeat" business going on. I've seen less issues with quality control and warranty parts with commercial 3 phase equipment vs single phase residential equipment. Do I think that commercial equipment is "built better"? Not certain, but I do believe that the quality of installation is generally better with commercial 3 phase systems. Generally you don't have guys working out of their house and no name truck installing units with cranes on a regular basis.

 

[ultrarunner]

Please skip as this is off topic...

Rules... new owner got a Remodel permit for an old restaurant nearby... contractor tells owner there are so many additions, alterations, etc... it would be better to scrape and start over...

Contractor was right in that the very old structure had been subject to many, many changes/adds over the years... even had a large city sewer manhole cover inside the restaurant foyer... long story but things like this can happen as time marches on...

Anyway... the previous owner lost it in Bankruptcy... one of the things he had done was install 4 nice 5 ton package units on the roofs...

The demo contractor just grabs them with his excavator and plucks them off the roof... with each one I could see and here the gas escape... took only minutes... this was 10 years ago... in a few hours the building was no more... this was on a Sunday too.

City was livid... no demo permit, asbestos, refrigerant, dust control... etc... CBO said there will never be a restaurant there again... new owner paid a million dollars for what is now a vacant irregular lot... no chance to rebuild anything close as site no longer has required parking since the state highway was widened 50 years back... but it was all grandfathered and a local landmark or sorts...

The willful and blatant repeated release of refrigerant cost them dearly.... Said the city might allow a drive up kiosk of sorts but that would be about it... only thing that remains is the old signage...

 

[kenmac]

Funny enough Ken, they do the exact same thing here in NC. Do you get a montly state board newsletter to see who just gets caught on breaking the rules?

Ask your brother if York is still using Hitachi for their VRF. They teamed up with Hitachi some time ago, but still use Gree (sp?) for their residential line, wich makes no sense to me.
.

Yes, I get the news letter.... it also shows those that they have caught /swore out warrants for, due to performing HVAC work without being state licensed.
They may be still using Hitachi. I know that's what he installed in his home.
I used the GREE line of VRF in my home because my nephew (his son) is over tech support at nortek global

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