Time for a new HVAC 5 ton - Help!

[Sigarms]

The owner stopped by and specified Tempstar... we bought several which I had the pleasure of installing... ducts, refrigerant, concrete pad, attic pans, electrical etc...

The irony is they don't tell you that Tempstar is Carrier, added they have cheaper lines available than what is listed here...



I can assure you, the name does not make the quality on how long the equipment will last.

BTW, the sound of forced air being anoying is either a question of equipment or duct size not being correctly sized.

 

[techman]

I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs. One was a warranty for a cracked joint on a brazed joint inside the unit and the other was a leak in the outside coil caused by a steel bracket rubbing on the copper. I have never seen a compressor failure. Bear in mind that Goodman uses Copeland scroll compressors, which is a key supplier to most OEMs. Most of the other components are from large, well known suppliers. The Goodman specific parts are the sheet metal work and coils. I do know that some years ago they had issues with coils leaking when they transitioned from copper to aluminum, but that seems to be in the past these days. For nearly all brands you can put a majority of failures on the install and/or maintenance of the units, not the OEM manufacturing.

Paul

 

[Daryl249]

I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs. One was a warranty for a cracked joint on a brazed joint inside the unit and the other was a leak in the outside coil caused by a steel bracket rubbing on the copper. I have never seen a compressor failure. Bear in mind that Goodman uses Copeland scroll compressors, which is a key supplier to most OEMs. Most of the other components are from large, well known suppliers. The Goodman specific parts are the sheet metal work and coils. I do know that some years ago they had issues with coils leaking when they transitioned from copper to aluminum, but that seems to be in the past these days. For nearly all brands you can put a majority of failures on the install and/or maintenance of the units, not the OEM manufacturing.

Paul

Goodmans get a bad reputation because they are easy for literally anyone to buy and a lot of the units have been installed by plumbers and/or handymen without any of the right tools or knowledge to do so. As you mention, I've found them to be full of parts from all the usual suspects that you'll find in nearly any other unit. It's always all about the install.

 

[ultrarunner]

BTW, the sound of forced air being anoying is either a question of equipment or duct size not being correctly sized.

Exactly and these are professional installed HVAC systems... sounds like a tornado coming and the window coverings start moving...

Not sure what the industry position is but I found a large lazy 180 sweep on the attic air return can make for a significant noise reduction...

 

[ultrarunner]

I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs. One was a warranty for a cracked joint on a brazed joint inside the unit and the other was a leak in the outside coil caused by a steel bracket rubbing on the copper. I have never seen a compressor failure. Bear in mind that Goodman uses Copeland scroll compressors, which is a key supplier to most OEMs. Most of the other components are from large, well known suppliers. The Goodman specific parts are the sheet metal work and coils. I do know that some years ago they had issues with coils leaking when they transitioned from copper to aluminum, but that seems to be in the past these days. For nearly all brands you can put a majority of failures on the install and/or maintenance of the units, not the OEM manufacturing.

Paul

Is copper for coils no more?

A lot of the stuff I have has copper coils with aluminum fins... and the coils have been successfully field repaired in 25 to 30 year old units.. the fins are showing their age.

Truth be told I have more issues with Johnson Controls Metasys and Pneumatic Reheat Coils...

 

[techman]

For the most part everyone is now using aluminum tubing for both indoor and outdoor coils. Most today also (say they) use microchannel coils. These are typically rectangular shaped tubes with external deflectors to increase air turbulence for better heat transfer. Aluminum can be repaired with special brazing materials, but it is not as easy as copper was.

paul

 

[Sigarms]

I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs. One was a warranty for a cracked joint on a brazed joint inside the unit and the other was a leak in the outside coil caused by a steel bracket rubbing on the copper. I have never seen a compressor failure. Bear in mind that Goodman uses Copeland scroll compressors, which is a key supplier to most OEMs. Most of the other components are from large, well known suppliers. The Goodman specific parts are the sheet metal work and coils. I do know that some years ago they had issues with coils leaking when they transitioned from copper to aluminum, but that seems to be in the past these days. For nearly all brands you can put a majority of failures on the install and/or maintenance of the units, not the OEM manufacturing.

Paul

Paul

Assuming (yes, understand about that word and if you can give me more info, would be appreciated) you're a "full time" one man show working from your house with a relative as a co-worker for "grunt work" to help, averaging 3 systems per month, that's at least 1,152 Goodman systems you've installed since 1987. Can you understand why I may be scratching my head if you've only had two repairs in 32 years with over 1,000 systems installed?

 

[Sigarms]

For the most part everyone is now using aluminum tubing for both indoor and outdoor coils. Most today also (say they) use microchannel coils. These are typically rectangular shaped tubes with external deflectors to increase air turbulence for better heat transfer. Aluminum can be repaired with special brazing materials, but it is not as easy as copper was.

paul

Could you please let me know what outdoor units Goodman are using aluminum for the outdoor coil other than perhaps Trane and Amercian Standard (and their sub brands?).

Also would like to know about who is using the micro channel coil other than York and Trane (their sub brands) on AC outdoor units, and Nordyne (and all their sub brands) on all indoor and outdoor systems including heat pumps. Personally, this is what I hate about Nordyne (per their micro channel system for indoor coils along with heat pumps). Most HVAC service techs would rather look at temps and pressures per their gauges over air flow, and IMO air flow becomes critical with micro channel systems, which a lot of people seem to ignore.

 

[techman]

Paul

Assuming (yes, understand about that word and if you can give me more info, would be appreciated) you're a "full time" one man show working from your house with a relative as a co-worker for "grunt work" to help, averaging 3 systems per month, that's at least 1,152 Goodman systems you've installed since 1987. Can you understand why I may be scratching my head if you've only had two repairs in 32 years with over 1,000 systems installed?

As far as I know, all of the Goodman and most other manufacturers are using aluminum microchannel coils today.

I am licensed and do HVAC as a side "hobby". I do not advertise, but work strictly work of mouth. I do have a mechanic friend who helps out (no relatives!). Over the years I have put in about 100 Goodman systems as well as 6 geothermal units. I started when we built our house and assisted my wife's uncle who had an HVAC business and installed our systems. Then I started, with his assistance, doing trouble shooting and repair on my own (York) systems. I took a course at CC and got licensed and started helping out friends and co-workers, and then ended up doing jobs for more people. Most are replacement of existing older or deal systems. Many are change from AC to heat pumps. I generally do not do jobs that require major duct rework. being a small, part time guy I am very selective and stay away from any pain in the butt jobs. I do have a full time job as an engineering manager for a large manufacturer.

Paul

 

[Sigarms]

I am licensed and do HVAC as a side "hobby". I do not advertise, but work strictly work of mouth. I do have a mechanic friend who helps out (no relatives!). Over the years I have put in about 100 Goodman systems as well as 6 geothermal units. I started when we built our house and assisted my wife's uncle who had an HVAC business and installed our systems. Then I started, with his assistance, doing trouble shooting and repair on my own (York) systems. I took a course at CC and got licensed and started helping out friends and co-workers, and then ended up doing jobs for more people. Most are replacement of existing older or deal systems. Many are change from AC to heat pumps. I generally do not do jobs that require major duct rework. being a small, part time guy I am very selective and stay away from any pain in the butt jobs. I do have a full time job as an engineering manager for a large manufacturer.

Paul

You're running about a 2% failure rate, general average within most manaufacturers and not out of line. Hopefully you can understand that when you state "I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs." that statement can be misconstrued per quality of the brand.

Given the information you've given me, I will also assume you are by far not the cheapest quote because if you're doing side work like you've described with your full time job, you don't want call backs being a pain in the butt added you mentioned no relatives which tells me you're smart LOL (in 25 years the only "relative job" I've done was my own parents home, and that was a boiler replacement, which I can live with).

If my assumptions are correct, I know more than a couple of guys like you locally in my area. Thing is, people assume since you're small, you have to be cheaper and you're not That said, you're not Goodman's typical customer by far.

Out of curiosity, do you push the brand or do you push the quality of your work?

 

[Sigarms]

As far as I know, all of the Goodman and most other manufacturers are using aluminum microchannel coils today.

When was the last time you installed a Goodman system?

Goodman has finally gone to an aluminum indoor coil kind of years ago, one of the last to the party (for both coils and air handlers), but as far as I know, outdoor units are still copper coils, and with all the yahoo's Goodman sells to, don't believe they would be that stupid enough to go to micro channel on any outdoor AC unit.

That said, IMO any new product changes worth making it would come out on the Daikin line first before Goodman. Please remember, Daikin is now the higher tier of equipment now produced for unitary split product systems sold in the US now on "behalf" of Goodman (even though Amana still has a better warranty, something the Japanese are still working on). The issue there is their is a cutltural difference on how warranties are viewed between Japan and the US, and IMO and it's still a learning process for them (Daikin, who owns Goodman).

 

[Sigarms]

being a small, part time guy I am very selective and stay away from any pain in the butt jobs. I do have a full time job as an engineering manager for a large manufacturer.

Part of the issue is that a full time HVAC company generally doesn't have the luxury of staying away from pain in the butt jobs or where duct work can be manufactured. Generally in business, the bigger the pain in the butt job you need to preform as a business, the more money you will charge on the job to CYA. This is where "full time" HVAC companies can get a bad rap for the pricing they charge because when you want a good job done with good service AFTER the sale, you will never stay in business by being cheap. This is where you have the luxuary of walking away from jobs because you don't advertise your business and rely on marketing and customer reviews to try and gain market share.

 

[Sigarms]

And yes, I need to lean multi quoting or whatever you want to call it per multiple quotes from either one or multiple people and tie it into one post

 

[techman]

You're running about a 2% failure rate, general average within most manaufacturers and not out of line. Hopefully you can understand that when you state "I have been installing Goodman units since 1987. Mostly heat pumps. Of all of the units I have done (I am still in contact with most customers) I have only had 2 repairs." that statement can be misconstrued per quality of the brand.

Given the information you've given me, I will also assume you are by far not the cheapest quote because if you're doing side work like you've described with your full time job, you don't want call backs being a pain in the butt added you mentioned no relatives which tells me you're smart LOL (in 25 years the only "relative job" I've done was my own parents home, and that was a boiler replacement, which I can live with).

If my assumptions are correct, I know more than a couple of guys like you locally in my area. Thing is, people assume since you're small, you have to be cheaper and you're not That said, you're not Goodman's typical customer by far.

Out of curiosity, do you push the brand or do you push the quality of your work?

I generally push the fact that most brands are descent. As a small, part-time business I do not have access to the name brand, certified dealer only products. So Goodman is one of the available options. But I do tell people that I recommend Goodman and that I have had very good luck with the product. But as I think you are hinting at, I do not rush or cut corners on installs. I have learned from many repair jobs that most issues are install related. An install that takes many firms a day will be a 3 day job for me. I believe in taking the time to do it right.

paul

 

[techman]

When was the last time you installed a Goodman system?

I put several in this summer, but I must admit that I did not pull open the condensing unit to look at the coil. I did look and they are still copper on the outside units. My earlier assumption was a bit too broad.

Paul

 

[Cat_Driver]

In my last house a Condo I replaced the Goodman that was installed outside the upper bedroom with a Trane. The Goodman literally shook the floor every time it went on.

The Trane ( high seer ) cut my utility bill by 50% - not kidding.

My current house has two AC units I replaced both noisy Goodmans with one Trane outside the Master bedroom and a to change things up I installed a Carrier for the main house. Both units perform perfectly. They both are high seer with multiple speed motors.

I live in the Desert where temps are up to 125 degrees for weeks during the summer. The High-speed
motor only comes on for a few minutes then tones down to a slow fan.

Both units are quiet.


I can hear the neighbors AC across the street when it's on and can't hear mine outside the kitchen.

With AC you get what you pay for in my opinion.

 

[Sigarms]

With AC you get what you pay for in my opinion.

The issue is there are a lot of variables on how the contractor does the job, add how he stands behind his work that you may not realize that will determine the actual job cost.

Added the fact, and no word of a lie, generally most HVAC contractors don't know how to price out a job so if they do work from their home and don't employ anyone, they think they are making money if they do charge 1k a day to do a changeout for someone.

 

[Sigarms]

I put several in this summer, but I must admit that I did not pull open the condensing unit to look at the coil. I did look and they are still copper on the outside units. My earlier assumption was a bit too broad.

Paul

You will find most manufacturers still use copper on the outdoor unit.

Trane and York (and all their sub lines) will use micro channel on the AC outdoor unit only. Nordyne is the only company that I know of that uses micro channel on both heat pumps and AC units AND indoor coils. Issue I have with Nordyne is most guys don't know their ABC's (airflow before charge) and airflow is more critical with Nordyne than any other line IMO .

Pretty much everyone has gone to aluminum coils on the indoor.