To BH or Not to BH?

[MSU_Keith]

This is my first post to TBN after lurking for several months. This is a great resource for information and I would like to thank the regular contributors for the information I have already learned.

Here is my situation: We are in the process of purchasing a 13.5 acre parcel that we plan to build a house on. The parcel is mostly flat with 6 acres of hardwoods, seven acres of heavily overgrown field and a half acre pond. The house will go in the hardwoods with a 650' driveway. A mud driveway is already in place but will need to be graveled and dressed. The house will require 650' of trenching for utilities, 500' of trenching for the run to the septic field (the only approved location /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif) plus the hole for the septic tank. Also, clearing of some trees for the house.

We plan to leave the overgrown field area for a year or two until the house is done but eventually would like to put in a little orchard or berry patch. I will need to build a small bridge to get the tractor to the field area. We are only planning on an acre of finishing mowing when all is done.

The machines I am considering are Kubota B7800/2910, Kioti CK30/LK3054, and NH TC29. Haven't looked at the comparable JD yet but plan to. The choosen machine will have a factory FEL but the big question is the BH:

-Is it reasonable to assume that I will be able perform the trenching work myself with this class of machine?
-I have not quoted someone else doing the trenching yet, any estimates as to how much of the BH purchase will be recovered by the DIY trenching? Seat time is not really an issue as I am looking forward to moving some dirt. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
-If I choose to go with the BH I am leaning toward a subframe machine - is this the right choice knowing it will eliminate some factory hoes?
-Any other colors with good dealers in SE Michigan I should consider?

Thanks for your help,
Keith

 

[hard_yakka01]

I have a NH 759C which is a three point attachment, what a PITA to mount and it certainly moves around while using the unit. I thought I would save money by buying a tractor mounted BH and not renting or getting a used a true BH unit, I don't believe that anymore. If I the unit would go on/off easier I would have found lot's more job's for it, but with only 1 tractor and multiple implements/jobs to do it's been sitting there awhile.

I've heard that sub-frame mounted units are easier to get on/off and don't wiggle as much. I've also heard good reports from people who have the WOOD's brand vs NH.

 

[EddieWalker]

Welcome to TBN

I think a backhoe is probably one of the greatest tools that I've ever come across. I use it for trenching, stump and tree removal, installing culverts, loosening really hard packed dirt that I want to move with my loader, digging huge pits for burying debri and fire pits and enlarging my ponds. I use it for picking things up and moving them around and I use it for getting unstuck when the front bucket wont get me unstuck.

For what you said you need if for, I think you would be wasting your money. The trenching would be faster, easier and cheaper renting a ride along trencher. The septic tank will be installed by the contractor and I doubt he would allow you to dig the hole even if you had the equipment.

Clearing the hardwoods for your house will be a quick and simple job for the dozer operator you hire to build your pad. You can spend hundreds of hours on your tractor, and he will still redo it to meet his requirements.

 

[jfdlaw]

First, check out the Deeres too. A friend has a 4200 with a backhoe that is a nice machine. He left it with me last winter and I had a chance to do a lot of digging.

How much time do you have to do the work? Are you in a situation where time is not an issue? If so, you might be able to do it with your tractor and save enough money to pay for the BH. But it will be time consuming.

Personally, I would check into prices for having the job done by someone with the right equipment or renting the proper machine when its time to do the job.

Still buy the tractor. They are tons of fun and a good tool to have, but I'm not sure you'll justify the backhoe. I haven't been able to justify buying one for my tractor. If I was looking at one for my tractor, I think I would look at the Woods units, although I thought I read that Kubota is coming out with a subframe mount BH. I liked the Deere unit on my friends tractor. I have no experience with the NH units.

 

[rdln]

I dont think the projects listed warrant the purchase of a backhoe but combined with all the little things that you will run into.......it is worth it.

FYI, Edison quoted underground electric to my barn the difference with and with out a trench dug by them was $1.20/foot

 

[Cliff_Johns]

Most of the things you listed are better hired or rented, but If I had that land, I would get a BH in a minute. You will be glad you did for the hundred things you didn't list that you will wish you had one for.

If you're looking for an excuse to buy one, that's OK, but a small tractor mounted BH will take a lot of time to do these things. If time really isn't a problem and you really do enjoy using your tractor, then just do it whether it makes sense or not.

I have a small BH on my JD4110. The BH is a frame mount and doesn't move around or feel lose or worrisome, but I've never used any other BH so I can't talk to that issue really.


Cliff

 

[dsgsr]

Take the time to look at the JD 4400/4410 with the #48 hoe or the new JD model equivalents 3000 models and the 448 hoe. I have operated real hoes, (TLB & excavators) an am impressed with the #48 hoe on my 4700. For its size it performs very well. To mount and unmount the hoe from the tractors sub-frame is a snap.

David

 

[Henro]

<font color="blue"> I think a backhoe is probably one of the greatest tools that I've ever come across...

[snip]

...For what you said you need if for, I think you would be wasting your money. </font>

I think there is a message here. I think the message is that the poster has no idea at this point how useful the backhoe will be to him if he ends up buying one!

First question is how bad would the purchase hurt the budget? For one person it may hurt a lot more that it hurts the next. In my case I bought and forgot. So havng the backhoe is wonderful. If buying it had hurt more, maybe I would be less happy.

Anyway, I have a 3PH backhoe for my Kubota B2910. Once I learned how to put it on and take it off, it became a piece of cake to do most of the time. I say most of the time because every once in a while, no matter what one does, things seem to have a way of going wrong.

I only have 3.7 acres and have used my backhoe for a lot of things. A LOT of things. With over ten acres I can't imagine not getting one's money's worth.

As far as trenchers go, they are great and fast, but what do you do if the local code demands at least a 16" wide trench, that is 4" of sewer pipe and 6" of sand or crused stone on each side of it, in addition to what they require on top and below the pipe? My 16" inch bucket answered the call to duty.

I would buy my backhoe again, and would not give it back even if the dealer offered to give me my full purchase back in exchange. I like having the backhoe that much.

Trenching is not that fast though. I think I could do between 25 and 30 feet per hour of 4' deep trench max. On a good day when the clay here was not sticking in the bucket too bad.

Attached is a picture of a 250 foot trench that I dug this fall for the sewer line that will replace the septic tank (if they ever get their end done and tell me it is OK to hook up at the house end...)

Anyway, a small backhoe is not a large backhoe. Small backhoes take longer. Small backhoes are weaker. But small backhoes are there when you need them. That is a big plus in my mind. There are so many things that one would not rent a backhoe to do, but what you will use the backhoe for if you have one.

I love my backhoe. I don't count the costs of owning it. I consider it my country club membership... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

edit: PS, the new replacement for the B2910 Kubota, the B3030 will have a 4-point subframe backhoe named the BH75...Best of both worlds...subframe and no warranty issues if something goes bad...same manufacturer...

 

[BigAl]

I have had both style of mount . Subframe is a much better set-up for me .
One thing I have not seen mentioned here is this : Most Contractors don't work on weekends unless you want to pay overtime or extra . Most homeowners like to be there when the work is being done .Usually the weekend is the only time you have off . That means you need to take time off from work and lose wages to watch someone else dig your project . Are you seeing the big picture yet ? The price of that rented and operated hoe just went up .
Big Al

 

[Steve_Miller]

Henro, That sewers going to hit about a hundred mile an hour when it reachs the street if it ever does.

I agree with Henro's assessment and will add that when I feel like going out to do something that requires the backhoe , I just jump on and go, when I feel like stopping I stop, point being, its there when your ready to play, sorry work.

Steve

 

[Jimbrown]

Buy the back hoe!!!! You might be able to hire the digging done cheaper but all of the little things that the hoe willl do just when you need it will outway the cost. The only reason to pay some one else to dig is cause you do not have the time. I got lots of time and it is fun.

 

[familyman]

Hire out the major trenching and clearing chores. The size and power of much larger machines, plus the experience of the operators, will give you a much faster and better job. Unless you have lots of time and patience, and a wife with same, you may be in for a minor but prolonged nightmare. Weather could delay you further. Definitely get your tractor and backhoe for the many, many future projects that will come up.
I misplaced my shovel a while back, but luckily I just spotted it -- in Henros' trench! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

 

[DK35vince]

I used my backhoe ( a Rhino 85/subframe mount) for digging my utility lines this past summer, (over 1500' total) and digging drainage ditch's (around 800' so far).
I was very pleased with the performance of my DK 35 and my Rhino backhoe. They worked great, moved right along in a reasonable amount of time, saved paying a contractor to come in and do it for me. And I can always find more things for the backhoe to do around here.
So like some of the others, I'm glad I have a backhoe.

 

[PineRidge]

We use a 757C sub-frame mount backhoe on our New Holland. We wouldn't advise using it to dig a pond, house foundation, or even the holes for the septic tanks but it is a valuable tool for many other applications none the less. That's not to say that if you had lots of time to burn that it couldn't be accomplished but some projects are better left to larger machines.

In our opinion the sub frame backhoes are the best method of mating to the tractor but I still wouldn't sell the 3-point mount short as many still do prefer them. If you watch a 3 point backhoe being attached we think you will agree that they usually attach as easily as a sub frame mount does.

If you like working with equipment (like us) and purchasing a backhoe won't break the bank then we say it's hard to go wrong.

Welcome to the TBN site.

 

[AndyMA]

I can't imagine not having a backhoe. I've had numerous in the last 30 years on compacts. I ran a subframe mounted Ford/NH 758 on my 2120 for years with great success. I used it for stumping, trenching, moving rocks, softening soil, breaking up ice and many other tasks. I now have a 3pt mounted Woods 1050 on a NH TN75. #pt is okay on larger machines. I also bought a used 44,000 excavator to do what the tractor's bh won't. I tried renting once, but it just doesn't work for me. I need the backhoe on and off for just about every project and you can't do all the rear implement work and then backhoe etc. (Unless you like working at about 30% efficiency) Just my thoughts, to me a tractor without a backhow is only half a tractor.

Andy

 

[JayC]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that JD hoes for the mid- and large- chassis machines aren't 3PH, nor are they subframe. Deere uses what they call Rockshaft Assist. The tractor frames are already strengthed to handle the hoes. They pop on and off quickly. I think you do have to remove the 3PH arms prior to attaching the hoe, though.

 

[rockyridgefarm]

Good point, Jay! I managed to buy one sight unseen, but if I had seen it I sure would have wanted it this way. You get rock solid connection with super easy on and off, with full compatibility with other attachments like a mid mower ) some subframe designs do not allow use of a mid mower in any fashion, even when the hoe is removed...) Removing and replacing the 3 point arms only takes a few monments...

A real timesaver for trenching is to use two operators, one on the hoe and another on the tractor, one digs the other moves. Of course, that would be rediculous in a commercial applkication, but at our house there is never a shortage of operators and the trenching goes very well. A rental doesn't work for me, and a trencher is aweful slow in our soil, so the backhoe has been fantastic.

 

[MSU_Keith]

At first glance, the $1.20/ft seems very reasonable. But on further review, a 650 ft trench 2 ft deep would be $780 + tax. If and when I get good at trenching lets say I could go 40 ft per hour at this depth. That makes it a 16 hour job. Using Edison rates thats close to $50/hr. Seems like a good wage to pay myself - especially for weekend work. Doe this calculation for making comparisons of DIY vs contracting it out make sense or am I missing something?

Doesn't look like I am going to be able to wait for the new Kubota - according to the dealer I talked with, it officially won't arrive until March and the hoe may be even later.

I would like to keep the whole package with hoe at around 20K. Leaving myself some wiggle room on price and features. The 4410 seem out of my price range once you start adding options. My choices are beginning to narrow - drove B7800 and it fit me nicely - not sure on the pedal layout though. Sat on Kioti CK30, also fit nice but did not get a chance to drive it. Have not made the trip to a blue dealer yet - maybe this weekend.

 

[dummy]

<font color="blue"> 500' of trenching for the run to the septic field (the only approved location ) plus the hole for the septic tank. </font> Ok, I'm a little confused. 500 feet away from the house site is the septic field? How are you going to move the septic that distance without installing a pumping station?

 

[EddieWalker]

A 2 foot trench 650 long is not a very big project. I've done 1,200 feet with a walk behind trencher in red clay in a day including installing the pipe and backfilling. I've dug 4 foot trenches 500 feet long in half a day with my backhoe. It's a Ford 555E.

I would consider your 650 foot trench a half day project on my backhoe. The biggest issue in time trenching with a backhoe is moving the backhoe into possition. For me, I just lift the bucket and outriggers, then push with the hoestick. It takes a minute, but when you repeat it every dozen feet or so, it adds up.

What you buy and how much power you have will factor into the time. Red clay is pretty tough digging, but conditions vary around the country.

Have you asked your utilities if you are allowed to dig the trench yourself? It varies from place to place what you can and can't do depending on policy, liability and the mood of the guy in charge on the day you ask.

I can dig all my water lines but not my electrical ones before a meter. After the meter, I can do what I want.

Septic lines are part of the system and the contractors all dig those. Doesn't matter how many hours I have or the level of my ability, they just wont allow me to dig those trenches.

I still haven't read a good argument for spending the extra money for a backhoe in your situation yet. If you've got the cash and it's something you really want, then it doesn't matter.

Like everyone who has a backhoe has said, it's nice to have and you will find things to use it on, but is it something you need right now?

If it's part of the budget, and you're sacrificing on the tractor you want in order to add the backhoe, I would definately go for the better tractor. Wether it's more HP, some extra options or larger mower, I'd consider upgrading in this area.