To Geothermal From Propane

[jrwalkerpa1]

I sure wish we had more info RE: these Geo systems during the summer months.

Heat here is no problem, but during the summer months we really use some A/C. For some reason GEO has not caught on here for cooling.

My family had a GEO powered A/C in the early 80's but it was not as efficient as we had hoped b/c it was not installed correctly. It used an open source well and discharged into a pond.

Perhaps the issue with geothermal in warmers areas is that you don't get quite as much of a benefit? For example, I live in Pennsylvania and our ground temp (once you get well below frost line) is a pretty stable 55 degrees year round. That works really well for heat in the winter and AC in the summer. If you are in area where summer ground temps may be more like 70 or 75, perhaps its not as efficent for AC? On the flip side, in warmers areas, you may not see as much of a gain in heating since an airsource heatpump works better in warmer winter temps. That is just a guess but it may be that its not as popular in your area because the cost to benefit ratio is not as great?

 

[fishpick]

Have you factored in the increased cost of the system install into that math?
How many years to recoup that? just curious?

There haven't been any increased costs... Just the company has been incompetent (that's not even a strong enough word)... In terms of payback... Our last propane fill was 2.94/gal... Which is way higher than our original math. Sticking with our original math, the unit is paid off in just under 7 years with 2.499 a gallon propane.

And that wasn't apples to apples - that assumed shutting the heat way back at night and me working out of the house chilled... Never mind the savings related to cooling. We almost never ran the central air before, now with this unit and the associated costs - we can run that in the summer and the free hot water alone will pay for it.

 

[TheGoose]

Our groundtemp here is 68-72 deg according to the charts I have seen. Contrast that to average 90-100 degree air temps for a standard condensor. I have seen very little geothermal activity in the south.

Perhaps the issue with geothermal in warmers areas is that you don't get quite as much of a benefit? For example, I live in Pennsylvania and our ground temp (once you get well below frost line) is a pretty stable 55 degrees year round. That works really well for heat in the winter and AC in the summer. If you are in area where summer ground temps may be more like 70 or 75, perhaps its not as efficent for AC? On the flip side, in warmers areas, you may not see as much of a gain in heating since an airsource heatpump works better in warmer winter temps. That is just a guess but it may be that its not as popular in your area because the cost to benefit ratio is not as great?

 

[Redneck in training]

I am not sure a "tractor forum" is the proper place for this, but here it is anyway: I have a 17 year old geothermal system in my 3000 sq ft house. I installed this system myself using parts bought from a supplier that has since closed up. I have been happy with it, but could probably get better efficiency with a new system. My house is 40 ft from a 400 acre constant level lake so I pump water out of the lake, thru the heat exchangers (two compressors) and back to the lake. I have a six zone system with six thermostats, six fans in the plenum and six duct runs. There are two return air registers (upstairs and downstairs).
I want to replace the six zone control system with a more modern one, as well as the compressors and air handler. Does anyone have any experience or recommendations for a control system that will handle six zones?

I think Tekmar makes such units. House Control 406

I built my own from a $80 PLC I bought on eBay. It automatically switches from AC to heat and vice versa, runs every pump at least one minute /day so they don't get stuck, integrates heat pump and water heater and controls heating temperature independently in every room of the house and garage. AC is not zoned for simplicity. It will not provide much saving due to the house layout. The house has floor heating. Total cost of PLC, relays, terminals, two dual temperature controllers, terminals, cabinet, power supplies etc. about $500. The problem is that I am only one able to fix it if something happens to it so it isn't for everybody.

We heat 3750 sq ft including 1400 sq ft of somewhat drafty garage. We AC about 2350 sq ft. Our estimated average heating cost is about 70-80/month. Maximum in the coldest month was $110.

 

[jinjimbob]

Have you factored in the increased cost of the system install into that math?
How many years to recoup that? just curious?

Geothermal doesn't pay for itself IF you ever need to have it fixed. High labour costs from most of the heating company that don't know anything.

 

[Redneck in training]

Geothermal doesn't pay for itself IF you ever need to have it fixed. High labour costs from most of the heating company that don't know anything.

That si about right statement.

I wanted to install my system by myself but due to work commitments I had to hire installers. It took them two days to install all the pumps and wire it all up.
They left some air in the outside loop, several sweat joints developed leaks, one pump was wrong for cold glycol mix (couldn't pump the required volume when the glycol mix was more viscous). The heat pump would start several times a day to keep the heat/cold accumulator at required temperature regardless there was a demand for heating or cooling. The cold take off for AC was at the top of the accumulator instead on the bottom. The HP had to be switched manually between heat and cool mode. The lead guy charged 65/hour and the helper 45/hour. I was charged for 20 hour each. The charge was not a problem the quality of work was.
After complaining to them I decided just to get new pump from them and do all the repairs and modifications by myself. So far there was not a single issue in past eight years.
The installers understand the basics about pumps, loops etc but have no clue about controls and nuances of particular installation.

 

[NorTracNY]

That si about right statement.

I wanted to install my system by myself but due to work commitments I had to hire installers. It took them two days to install all the pumps and wire it all up.
They left some air in the outside loop, several sweat joints developed leaks, one pump was wrong for cold glycol mix (couldn't pump the required volume when the glycol mix was more viscous). The heat pump would start several times a day to keep the heat/cold accumulator at required temperature regardless there was a demand for heating or cooling. The cold take off for AC was at the top of the accumulator instead on the bottom. The HP had to be switched manually between heat and cool mode. The lead guy charged 65/hour and the helper 45/hour. I was charged for 20 hour each. The charge was not a problem the quality of work was.
After complaining to them I decided just to get new pump from them and do all the repairs and modifications by myself. So far there was not a single issue in past eight years.
The installers understand the basics about pumps, loops etc but have no clue about controls and nuances of particular installation.

Good reason to go always go with someone that knows what they're doing and will back it up. A company that I looked at here guarenteed their work for 10 years. They monitor their systems and will fix any system that is not performing within 10% of what they stated. Geothermal payback wasn't good enough for me since I'm on natural gas. If I was on propane the payback was MUCH shorter. I currently looking still at solar. Looks like ~15year payback.