Trailer Welders Certification

/ Trailer Welders Certification #1  

gemini5362

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Ozark Mountains in Arkansas
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In another thread a poster talked about modifying his bumper trailer to a fifth wheel. There was a lot of good advice about how to do it. Some of the problems associated with it. There was a lot of talk about legal issues of just welding it like that.

I am curious how many people have bought trailers from a trailer manufacturer and checked out the certification of the welder that made their trailer. Is it someone that was a graduate of the Tulsa School of Welding or someone that bought a welder and just started making trailers. We have a lot of money tied up in things we haul and yet I know that I for instance never checked anything on who did the welding on the one I bought.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #2  
Good point. I would think that if it is a trailer building facility, that the company would be sure that whoever was building the trailers was certified. Kind of like taking your car/vehicle to dealer for repairs, that whoever is working on it is somewhat knowledgeable mechanically. But as we know and have heard, not all are.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #3  
gemini5362 said:
In another thread a poster talked about modifying his bumper trailer to a fifth wheel. There was a lot of good advice about how to do it. Some of the problems associated with it. There was a lot of talk about legal issues of just welding it like that.

I am curious how many people have bought trailers from a trailer manufacturer and checked out the certification of the welder that made their trailer. Is it someone that was a graduate of the Tulsa School of Welding or someone that bought a welder and just started making trailers. We have a lot of money tied up in things we haul and yet I know that I for instance never checked anything on who did the welding on the one I bought.

Yea it's Joses school of welding here in Texas.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #4  
I doubt very seriously that you will find a certified welder at a trailer manufacturer. And if you do the truth be known that a welder can be certified by the the manufacturer in house.
Back in the early 80's I was contacted by an aircraft mechanic about welding an AD modification on a Piper twin engine airplane. I told the guy that I wasn't certified for this and he sent me a couple of pieces of 4130 tubing to gas weld and he tested them. He held FAA airframe inspector authorization and I did the welding. I also used to weld the exhaust stacks on PT-6 turbines for a crop duster operation without certification.
Certification isn't everything, I've known some ceritfied welders that laid some ratty looking beads. My dad held 13 certifications for experiemental welding on gas turbine engines, he taught me to weld when I was 10. He had to recertify before starting every shift.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #5  
Qualified and certified are two different words,you can be qualified and be certified by a company to a code[test done in accordance with a welding code,aws,asme,api],but still given by company.Or,[unless a client demands that the welders are tested to a specific code],the company can give any test it choses,right up a little cert. paper and say joe blow has taken the standard company test and we certify him to weld for us,,key word here is THEY certified him,so,that means they are responsible,,no matter how they did it,not the welder.
You can of course also be qualified and not certified by a company,or certified and not certified to the company you are now working for,bottom line is the company is responsible.
And there are many different types of certification tests,even if you do it to a welding code,,you can be certified in flat postion,fillit welds only,with stick rod,,,,you would not be certified for any other postion[up/down,vertical,overhead],you would not be certified for groove welds,and you would not be certified for mig or tig or fluxcore,,,it gets real complicated.
The certification test is supposed to equal the hardest weld the guy will make,using the same equipement he will be using on job.
When a company,or a welder,says they are certified it doesn't really mean much,unless you know the history of that certification.
An iron worker who welds for a living 20 stories up is 99.9 percent of time not certified[or qualified for that matter],to weld pipe.
I could have half the backyard welders who read this web page,pass A certification test,to a code,in half a day or a day,,and write up a certification paper up and they would indeed be certified,,,but would it mean much of anything to anybody other than him?,and would it make him a better welder?,,no,,,if he went off looking for a job,[and if it was done right],that paper may get him a test with the company he is wanting to work for,and thats about it,,,,take these department of state transportation tests most states have,,they are generally done right and all and yes the guy if he passes would be certified by that state to weld on postions and processes that the test represented,,but,he wouldn't be certified in probably any other state,,he wouldn't be certified to weld on pipelines,in power plants or anywhere else,,,unless,,,the new people hired him accepted that test,,by,,,recertifying him with them,,,thingy
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #6  
thingy,
I agree, your post is correct and to the point!
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #7  
I worked on Semi Trailers for almost 30 years and suppervised 3 shops (up to 15 mechanics) in two different states for large corporations. There is no certification required.
A trailer could get stopped at a DOT or state safety inspection and fail because of poor or improper welds.
A lawyer could get rich after the fact but that is another thread.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #8  
Welding certification is at best, Byzantine. Are you certified to weld high pressure stainless steel pipe carrying radioactive contents at a nuke power station? Are you certified to weld titanium on the hull of a submarine? Are you certified to weld corten steel overhead while standing on your head and gargling peanut butter?

Any idiot can weld 1/8 to 1/4 mild steel downhand with no instruction beyond a book with pictures, I'm proof. When it gets critical I hire an expert.

About trailer welding... We have a trailer manufacturer quite near to us. They start out the new guys on non-critical assemblies and if their work passes muster they move on to more responsibility. I have bought two of their trailers and have never seen a defect. Both were 12,000 gross with bumper hitches. They have a good reputation in the area and their trailers are exported to various areas of the country due to their quite reasonable prices. holttrailers.com

Ive see some of their larger trailers leaving behind a couple 1 ton Dodge/Cummins trucks with 3-4 trailers stacked on top of the one they were pulling.

Pat
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #9  
Well,on to the good about welder certs.If you are building something that requires welding be done to a certain quality level,[which would be about anything I guess,and they got codes for everything,they got one for earth moving equipement I know,,not sure about trailers though,wouldn't be surprised if they didn't,but a company might not use it if not forced to by client,person buying whatever],,,anyways if you plan on making a bridge,power plant,refinorey,chemical plant,pipeline,,,that you are going to have to hire many welders,,you got to have something,someway,of making sure these guys can make welds to your min. requirements,,and thats how welding codes,procedures,and codes and specs came about,and for the most part it works pretty good.
For instance,if you are making a power plant or repairs on a power plant,government and states make you do it to certain codes,,so,you ain't got no choice in the united states,these codes tell you the min. requirements,,and they all say how your welders will be tested,,and how their welds will be tested after you certify them,,,than on top of that you have insurance companys,they have representatives there to make sure you do it that way,the states and federal government do to,,,so what I'm saying is,generally speaking now a days,,your average person who knows nothing about these things can pretty much rest assured that about all that could be done to make that pipline,power plant,refinoray,chemical plant,railroad,papermill,bridge,etc,safe was done,,,,accidents happen,,nothing is exact,,but for MOST things concerning this,,about all that can be done is being done,,generally speaking,,yeah,there are crooks in every profession,and sometimes I've seen things that were accepted that if I was king,would not have been,but it works pretty good,,,when the last time any one heard of a bridge falling down or a power plant blowing up or a sky scraper falling down on its own because of bad welds? Things wear out,and there are systems in place to even make this part,pretty much a non issue,,but all things are made by us humans and that means **** happens,,,

The most unsafe things are the little things,,they are sometimes over looked,,trailers might be one,,but like I said,I bet there is a code or spec that covers them,,,[just have never worked to it myself,the american welding society of miami fl. has codes on about every thing,they got a web site,somebody could look it up,,and I bet states and federal government address it somewhere],,but the little things sometimes get ignored because the powers are mainly concerned with the bigger things.
I'm not saying welder certifications are worthless,far from it,,what I'm saying is unless you know that that certification was done correctly and honestly and it applys to what the welder is now welding,etc,,,the fact that a guy is certified or a company says he is certified might not mean what your average person thinks it does,,,there is probably 1,001 different ways,[postions,processes,tests,consumables],that you can test a welder,,generally speakin,a pipe welder is your most skilled welders,,but even than there are so many different processs and materials,that one guy just can't have experience in all to the degree possible to make him really good on every thing.A good pipe welder will be making over 30 an hour,,sometimes well over,,,a good trailer welder/wire burner would be lucky to make 15 bucks an hour and that would be at a big shop,probably 80 percent of those type "welders" don't make much over min. wage,,so,,they ain't real concerned,,,thingy
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification
  • Thread Starter
#10  
I have a question about trailers. This post was not started with this question in mind since I just bought the trailer today. I purchased a dump trailer today. I think the person I bought it from took a Heil 3 yard dump bed and mounted it on a trailer. It is a scissor lift single ram. I have not seen it work yet because there is no way to make the hydraulics work. From what little bit I have seen and know the hydraulic pump on dump trucks works off a small driveshaft that runs the pump. The trailer has the pump on it but obviously no driveshaft to run it. The guy I bought it from said I could use a starter motor to run it and that will probably be what I do if that will work. The question I have is that from the look i took at it I am not sure how you make the dump bed go up or down. At least as far as the hyraulics works. Do you have a valve that changes the direction and is it mechanically operated or electrical. I did not see the valve could it be located inside the hydraulic unit itself. Does any one know how they work. I am hoping that I did ok on the price. I did not measure the length of the trailer or the width I am getting my information from a metal tag on the bed saying it is a Heil 3 yard dump. It is an all steel bed bed and the tailgate lowers from the top or disengages from the bottom for dumping. I believe the trailer is a trailer that the seller had and he put the dump bed on it but I am not sure that is correct. The trailer is a single axle with tandem wheels. I noticed some rust on the ram itself so I am not sure if it can be cleaned up or if it is going to have to br replaced. I dont know if the hydraulics work since there was no way to test them. The lift mechanism is a scissor type lift. I gave 950.00 for it. I did not think that even if I was good enough to do the work that I could buy all the steel and the axle to make a trailer that size for 950.00 If anyone knows how the hydraulic system works and could elaborate on it I would really apreciate it.
 
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/ Trailer Welders Certification #11  
GEMINI,,not a welding question so I can't add much other than,,,,,if I was buying a trailer,,would make them show and demenstrate their trailer to me before I bought it,,kinda like a test drive,,,why didn't you?,,,,thingy
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification
  • Thread Starter
#12  
Thingy that is a good question. The truth is that I have been looking at this type of trailer for a while and I have a pretty good idea what they go for. A working trailer of this type on ebay would have run 2500 at least plus the cost of going to get it. In todays diesel prices that adds up fast. This trailer is only about 100 miles from me so it is just a tank of diesel to get it. I am not a great welder but I have done some welding. I made a pair of ramps for my flatbed trailer. The ramps are 5 foot long and 3 foot wide and I have over a 100.00 in steel. To me it appeared like the steel to make a trailer like the one I bought would have cost me more than the 950.00 I paid for it plus I would have had to buy an axle and a cylinder and the hydraulics for it. I figured that the trailer even if the hydraulics and the cylinder does not work was worth more than I paid for it. If they work then I got a really good bargain. I have done a little bit of hydraulic work at least enough to have a working knowledge of some of the terms. My old job was at a steel mill and they used big hydraulic systems there and I helped the mechanics on them sometimes. If I need to I could take the cylinder over to one of their mechanics and get them to help me rebuild it. I was hoping someone here might have had some experience with the Heil dump beds and could give me some tips on it.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #13  
There are many possibilities, not just a single right way to do this. A starter motor can have the power to do the job but isn't designed to run very long at a time and can easily overheat. You might have to pace yourself.

The 10 wheel dumps that I have driven never had power down, just lift. Gravity brings it back down when you change the valve to drain the ram.

I have a 12,000 lb gross weight util trailer to which I am going to add a dump box accessory (removable.) This is a part of my Swill Army Trailer project. I want a stock trailer accessory as well as a dump trailer accessory.

Anyway, a decent battery mounted at the trailer, probably by the hydraulic tank, pump, etc. is the way to go. You can connect a hot wire from the trailer cable to charge the battery when the trailer is connected. If you don't have a relay in your system you should add one. They make relays intended for this purpose which don't overheat when energized for hours and hours. The purpose of the relay is to pass power to the trailer and its battery when the engine of your tow vehicle is running but to disconnect when you turn the key off. This way you will not run down the starting battery of your truck but you will get some charging of the hydraulic pumping battery between lifts if yo have your truck engine running. This sure helps keep the hydraulic battery charged especially if you drive very far between loading and unloading.

You just need a valve to direct the fluid to the ram when you want to lift and from the ram to the reservoir when you want gravity to lower the box back down.

Pat
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification
  • Thread Starter
#14  
Thank you pat. The owner told me that the ram itself is the resevoir. I dont know enough to know whether that is true or not. I am anxious to go pick it up but I cant do that until next saturday. I do not know if my truck has a relay on the wire to charge the battery or not. I do know it has a wire in the 7 pin plug for that purpose. Now that you have mentioned it I will see if that wire is hot when the key is turned off.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #15  
There are different ways that a PTO dump are set up. Yours sounds like the kind that has a valve somewhere that is controled with a remote lever that pushes and pulls to work. You engage the PTO in the truck then work the valve with a lever in the cab.
Hooking a starter to it probably won't be worth the trouble. A PTO is run off of an engine with usually more than 100 hp.
They sell 12volt power units that are used for liftgates, snowplows and such. I would reccomend a gas engine and a log splitter type pump. Either one will be slow because of the reduced volume of oil.
As for the cylinder, if it's not pitted you should be able to polish it. A lot of those cylinders just used graphite/rope packing which can be tightened or replaced if leaking.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification
  • Thread Starter
#16  
STIMW Thank you for the advice. I am not as worried about the hydraulic pump as i am the cylinder. I have remote hydraulics on my tractor and if I need to I will just use my pickup to haul the loaded trailer home then I will use my tractor hydraulics to dump it.

I am curious though. Even though the hydraulics is hooked to an engine through a pto on a dump truck, does it really take 100 hp to pump that. I know that you can get a pretty good sized dump trailer that runs off of a small hydraulic pump and a 12 volt battery. Is there something I am not understanding about the hydraulic pumps on this type of dump bed ?
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #17  
While it dosen't take 100 hp to run the hyd pump, when you watch a dump truck raise the bed without much effort it is because of the high hp. A smaller hp pump system would take longer.
You could use your tractor PTO and a driveshaft to the pump, like hooking up a brush cutter or other implement. Would be simple way to go.
Pitting is what you have to worry about on the cylinder, pitting will keep it from sealing. Minor surface rust might polish off good enough to alow it to seal.
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #18  
Using the ram for a tank? Where is the hydraulic fluid when the ram is empty? IF you run it off a tractor the tractor's hydraulics will supply and recover the fluid. If you use an electric motor driven pump or PTO you need an accumulator tank.

I'd personally not try to involve my tractor hydraulics and try to observe KISS. I'd prefer to put a battery, motor, and pump in a box mounted on the front of the trailer. Next on my personal list would be a gas engine driven pump like previously posted (splitter type arrangement.) If you could use a splitter too then this would be a great option as the same hydraulics could run the dump or the splitter. A good twofer.

Pat
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification
  • Thread Starter
#19  
Patrick you bring up good points some of which had occured to me already. If I do decide to use the tractor hydraulics it will be after I have removed the ram and disasembled, cleaned and refurbish it. That is the only way I can think of that would stop me from having a worry about contamination in my tractor hydraulics. I wondered about the seller telling me that the ram held the resevoir for the hydraulics also. I do not know that much about those rams and was not sure that maybe it had a liquid storage resevoir built into the ram. Another suggestion that I have recieved was just to run the hydraulic pump that is there (providing that it works of course.) off of the power take off from the tractor. My 50 horse tractor should be able to spin the hydraulic pum pretty easily. and manufacturing a small driveshaft for that is pretty easy. For the moment since I cannot go and get it until Saturday I am just getting some ideas and suggestions in the what if category. I am hoping that the pump works and the ram works. If that is the case all I have to do is to come up with a dc motor to drive it. I might try the starter suggestion the seller made just to see if it works. I have several non used starters in my junk collection and my friend at work has a bunch. That would be the cheapest solution and making an adapter for the starter would be a fun project. ( I have free access to a lathe and a vertical mill and more important access to someone that knows how to use them.) I will post more on the trailer when I get it and see what I have got. In the meantime I really apreciate the suggestions everyone has been making
 
/ Trailer Welders Certification #20  
Gemini, It is YOUR PROJECT but I'll give you the advice I'd give a close friend... You are building in a repetitive hassle if you are going to road the trailer behind a truck and then have to go get a tractor to hook up the PTO. You'll be walking part of the time or requiring a second person as a driver. It will work, but it will be a PITA!

Lets say yo drive to quarry and get crusher run for the driveway. Now you are home with a load. Can you slowly drive down the drive tilting the dump a little more every few yards? Maybe if you drop the trailer and hitch up the tractor as tow vehicle and connect the PTO.

What if you use the tractor's FEL to load the trailer with dirt from a few different locations. Are you going to hitch-unhitch-hitch-unhitch or use the truck to move the trailer and the tractor for loading? Then when you are ready to go somewhere to dump the load you have to unhitch the truck and hook up the tractor.

I'm sure there may be some combination of operations where it might not be a big pain but if it were me I'd be trying to make it dump without using the tractor hydraulics.

What if you want to haul a load of gravel for a friend/customer. The friend/customer doesn't have a tractor. Now what do you do? Take your tractor to his location and park it, then go to the gravel pit, then to his place to hook up the tractor to dump and then take the trailer home and go back for the tractor.

It seems to me that effort spent in creating an inconvenient solution would be better redirected toward a SMOOTH solution. The $ shouldn't be that big and the convenience would be a very nice thing (and quite a time saver.)

Pat
 

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