Turf vs R1 vs R4?

[cowboydoc]

You're exactly right Pete. Just because Dahammer and myself think they're worthless someone else may think they're the best thing since sliced bread. Just remember for the most part what is said is a persons opinion based on his/her experiences.

On a sidenote Pete that dog you gave me the help with has turned out to be one of the best dogs we've ever had. She doesn't do any of the things she used to and has turned into a great family pet and quite a little cattle dog. Thanks. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Knute]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I knew this would become an animated thread! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Pete )</font>

Me too, but I wanted to know BEFORE buying one and then having to buy new tires a month later. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I think based on this I'm going to go with R4's when I order my rig, I don't really have a "lawn" just wild grass that shouldn't tear up much, and if it does it's not a big deal to me. The rest of the area is wild and I really don't care if the weeds get messed up.

John

 

[Dahammer]

<font color="green"> In all my shopping for my tractor, the R4s were the tire that was on 90% of all the compact tractors on the dealers lots. </font>
I've noticed the same thing..not really sure why /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif . Maybe it is because the dealers can get a few more $$ for them. The first time you get stuck in the mud with R4's and think "OMG, how is a tow truck gonna get this out?" you will be a convert. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Of course I worked my JD4600 and 48 hoe pretty hard, more than most compacts I'm sure. Slid into a few root-ball holes that I excavated and had to crawl out like a mechanical bug using loader and hoe for legs.

 

[billfires]

Knute, one other consideration with turf tires is that they usually have a smaller diameter than R-1s or R-4s that results in lower ground clearance. On my NH 1920 with the subframe backhoe I only have approx. 7 inches of ground clearance with the 18.4-16.1 rear turf tires. With the 14.9-24 R-1s or 17.5-24 R-4s the grond clearance should be about 11 inches. Bill C

 

[Boondox]

He's right, though. R4s just look cool!

Pete

 

[glennmac]

I have written before about my dislike of R4 tires, and agree with all the bad things said about them by others. R4's would be my last choice for any situation, other than extreme loader use, working in rock quarries or similar lapidary terrain, or extended road driving.

My three year dissatisfaction with the tire choices offered by CUT manufacturers has lead me to a different land.

I am currently drafting a four-part article on tire selection, which will include explanations of tire treads, soil conditions, 4WD circumference ratios, footprint pressure calculations, rim and flange explanations, and the superiority of radial design for tractor tires. The culmination of the series in Part IV will document with pictures how I researched, specified and installed the highest quality R1W radial tires on my new L3430 for essentially the same cost as Kubota's R4 tires and rims--which should give me much better dry and wet soil traction, much more flotation, much bigger footprints, much less ground pressure and soil/lawn compaction, much stronger top and sidewall construction, far greater tire life, improved 4wd ratios, and a far more comfortable ride than is possible with the kind of cheap bias ply R1 and R4 tires put on compact tractors (sometimes on out-of-spec rims and often with out-spec-4WD ratios). This all will be posted during the last part of August. The tractor is not yet delivered; some final tread carving and other customizations are being worked on as I type.

Money question: why do the majority of CUTs sold in the U.S. have R4 tires? My answers:

1. Tractor dealers are ignorant about tire types.
2. Tractor buyers are ignorant about tire types.
3. R4 tires look cool.
4. R4 tires have gotten the democratic-sounding and mind-numbing word "compromise" associated with them.
5. Dealers are lemmings.
6. Buyers are lemmings.
7. R4 tires and rims are a huge profit item for the tractor manufacturers (though perhaps not so much for the tractor dealers). Why do you think they are so much more expensive than the "ags" and "turfs" that are available but which are usually recommended against? You can see this profit game, and turn it against the tractor manufacturers, by buying a tractor without tires and rims.

Much more in a few weeks.

As a teaser, I have attached (I hope) a picture of my radial R1W front tires standing next to the cheapo Titan R4 that is standard on every Kubota Grand L.

 

[Knute]

Thanks Glenn, I'm looking forward to the full review.

My guess for why R4's are so popular are your #2 and #3 as much as anything else, but I could be wrong since I'm pretty sure I currently fall into the "ignorant" category. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

John

 

[glennmac]

I took the attached picture to compare my radial R1W tires to the tire sizes on my B2910.

However, the picture is useful to illustrate one of the key traction differences between R1 tires and R4 tires. If you look closely at the R4's on the 2910 (I wish I knew how to post a larger picture), you will notice that you can see right through the spaces between the shallow R4 tread lugs. This is why R4's will slip sideways when on a hill. There is little tread resistance to lateral movement forces.

You cannot see through or between the R1 lugs because they reach down to the center of the tire at a 45 degree angle. This enables an R1 to better resist lateral movement. On the R1W's pictured, the angled lug is also curved (which you can see better in the attachment to my prior post). This increases lateral resistance even more.

The combination of angled and deeper lugs make R1 tires much safer and more traction effective on hills, especially when the hills are wet or snow covered.

 

[F350Lawman]

Gee, we're all stupid and ignorant because we don't agree with you? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

1. my R-4's were a whopping $200 option, wow... my dealer or JD must have made a killing.
2. he didn't suggest or offer them, I asked for them.
3. their slightly lower tire/rim height allow me to enter my barn.
4. my property is flat I am not too worried about sliding sideways.
5. my property has plenty of thorns, sharp branches. etc that I will be clearing so the extra 2 plies offered on the R-4s help.
6. the R-4s ARE gentler on my lawn than the ag tires my tractor comes with due to the narrower width and sharp treads of the ag tires. My lugs are nice and wide the tractor DOESNT drive them deep into the ground even in slightly damp condtitions.
7. I would rather use the R-4s on paved driveways in the winter when I am clearing ice and snow. How well do those sharp ag lugs last on pavement???
8. they go through the mud fine. I have filled the rims to the axle with mud and have had zero problems getting out of the mud. I am not looking to pull a ground engaging implemet through 18" mud, I just need to get through it. If I needed to drag some implement through mud often I am sure ag tires would help. I tend to believe most of us compact trator users try to avoid the ground engaging implement when the ground is pure mud, so I don't think it is much of an issue.

THEY ARE A COMPROMISE. Just like the all-terrain tires on my truck are a compromise. They work well in the field AND on the highway. Same for my R-4s they work well in the field, mud ,on my lawn and pavement.

 

[Hambone]

I have R1's and do not tear up my lawn unless really wet making sharp turn going too fast.

 

[cowboydoc]

i agree with you hambone. You never knew I was in the hay field or the pastures with my R1's, even on the big tractors. I'm not sure where the deal with R1's scuffing more than R4's came from.

 

[F350Lawman]

You never knew I was in the hay field or the pastures with my R1's, even on the big tractors.

I am not worried about my pasture or a hay field. I was talking about lawns. Here in NY we have had record rainfalls this year. It is hard to find a day between rainfalls to cut. Even in other years lawn tractors sometimes can't be used when we get a couple of days of rain.

The slightly wider less sharply lugged R-4s are borderline. The Ags would only make it worse. You probably have so much property that a sharp turn to you is one that is completed without leaving the county /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Around me even when you have several acres the "lawn' cutting usually involves some tight turning to cover the propertyand manuevering around trees. This is another area where the R-4s probably have an advantage in scuffing and gouging.

 

[zuiko]

I ordered mine with R4s because of the lawn issue. I would've gone with R1s if I didn't plan on mowing or doing much driving on the lawn.

That said, I considered putting R1 style tires on my lawn tractor, but that weighs 500 lbs and I don't think it would be a problem.

 

[CTyler]

I haven't had any trouble with my R4's and have been in plenty of mud. I've pulled my 4wd Silverado through a 1/4 mile of mud and the truck could hardly move on its own. It was slow going but never got stuck. I don't want to do that again though, way to much mud packed in tractor everywhere.

Digging out my catch dam it sinks a good foot or more and it still gets through it. I don't see a problem with the R4's. If R1's are better in the mud then great, to bad they can't be better on the other stuff like lawns, slopes, road, gravel etc.. I did not buy R4's to get thru the mud though.

Just because you dont' like R4's don't go saying others are ignorant about them. I think it shows ignorance and arrogance to make such statements. I firmly believe you owe an apology for those statements.

Your entitled to your opinion on things and I'm fine with your not liking R4's. Your not entitled to pass judgement for the rest of us.

I bought R4's, the correct tires for my needs.

 

[yellowsocks93]

I guess I'm the only one who likes turf tires especially the wide front and rears on my 990. They provide excellent flotation, look sweet, and I can sidehill very good. I do plow in the winter but I don't lose that much traction. And Titian tires are not crappy! There my favorite next to the Goodyear Soft trac pattern.

Nick
990 4x4 turf, 272 RFM, 430 loader, 25A flail

 

[glennmac]

Ok, I do apologize if my tone offended. I sometimes write very bluntly, not to insult anyone but just to make rhetorical points.

Let's not talk in absolutes. There are no "right" or "wrong" tires. You can get along with any of these tire types, do all the jobs you need to do, and be perfectly satisfied. Fitting in a garage is as good a reason to choose a tire as a reason related to soil or lawn.

Further, I limit my R4 rim, 4WD ratio, and profit margin claims to the Kubota L Series.

Certain facts, however, are inarguable. R1 treads are superior to R4 treads in terms of traction, side slippage and mud shedding. That may or may not be important to any given user.

But I have not clearly stated my project. I am not arguing in favor of R1's. My experience is that I have not been satisfied with any of the available choices: bias ply R1, R3 and R4 treads. None of those treads meet my needs.

I believe I have found the tire that does: a high-flotation radial R1W. I don't think many compact tractor dealers or buyers know what an R1W (or an R2) tread is, because none of the primary tractor manufacturers offer hi-float R1W's on CUTs. That's part of what my article will discuss. I'm getting way ahead of myself.

More inarguable facts: the Michelin radial R1W shown next to the Titan bias-ply 10-16.5 R4 (which is the standard on all L Series Kubotas and on many other large CUT brands):

1. Has better traction in dry soil than the R4.
2. Has better traction in wet soil than the R4 (or an R1).
3. Peforms much better in mud than the R4 (or an R1).
4. Has a much larger and lower pressure footprint than the R4 (or an R1), which (to a farmer) means less soil compaction and (to a lawn owner) means less scuffing and imprinting of lawns than the R4 (or R1).
5. Has stronger top and sidewalls than the R4 (or an R1).
6. Can carry a much heavier load than the R4 (or an R1), and at lower pressures.
7. Will last much longer in usage (including roads) than the R4 (or an R1).
8. Is the same price as the Kubota-sold R4.

These are all from tests and specs, not just my opinion.

My conclusion is: if I like bias-ply R4's (or R1's), why shouldn't I like high-flotation radial R1W's better?

I am hoping that all of the above is in fact new news to just about everyone. The complete story in two weeks.

 

[JohnMiller3]

Hi Glenn,

Are you going to use the factory installed R1's and then switch over to your new found love's for a true comparison?

 

[Neophyte]

Glenn,

Are you purchasing the R1W tires through your Kubota dealer? Who makes the R1W tires and where can I get more information on them? Can JD and NH special order this type of tire to fit on a new tractor?

 

[glennmac]

I can't help myself. I SO MUCH love these tires. (But the apocalyptic Oozama Ver Boten test is yet to come. Sunday.)

Here is Bob Wolff of Woodbury Tractor Company (originally a big skeptic), just earlier today, intentionally trying to scuff Connecticut-soaked turf with my Michelin radials.

He failed. Completely.

 

[Henro]

Glenn,

Will making a significant change to the tire type in any way impact your warrenty?

I guess reading several threads here recently got me paranoid or something... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif