ULSD and Power Service - question

[5030]

I love reading the Pups posts. They are so refreshing. Just like the stack gas from a coal fired generating plant.

My day job is at a Western Star/Freightliner dealer so I'm around class 8 diesels all the time and have been for years and I'll tell you all too, that when refineries went from high sulfur fuel to 500ppm or less, pump failures went up along with injector scoring. Cummins especially suffered from premature seal failure, while Caterpillar suffered from cup failure. Older PT pump equipped NT engines needed replacement gasket sets for the pump and Caterpillar redesigned their injectors. Then the Fed went crazy with the new emission standards. In 2010, the exhaust air (from the muffler) will be cleaner than the intake air, but at what cost. 2005 engines have catalytic convertors as well as compound turbocharging (cat) and EGR recirculation systems (DDEC and MB). 2006 is the first round of the 2010 benchmark and the added cost of emissions related componentry will add around 10K to the price of the truck. Trucks will have, in addition to EGR, particulate filters and exhaust afterburners (Cat). By 2010, DDEC will cease to exist. Detroit Diesel can't meet the 2010 emission standards. HEUI engines like the Navastar Diesel (Powerstroke) and the HEUI Caterpillar engines rely on sulfur to lubricate the close tolerance surfaces in the pump and unit injectors and all the other engine manufacturers also rely on sulfur as a lubricant. Consequently, Caterpillar Engine Company has developed an additive for their engines and others that replaces the lubricity lost from the removal of sulfur. It's available from any Cat Engine dealer. I use it religiously in my Powerstroke and my Kubota, which, has a close tolerance rack style pump. I'd suggest using either the Cat additive, Powerservice or Lucas Fuel Treatment.

Someone told me that Sky Pup was a Sanatation Engineer. I'll buy that. He seems to sling great amounts of bull poop around.

 

[penokee]

Thanks for all the replies, especially Diesel Power and 5030. I appreciate that both of you have worked with Diesel Engines and have experience to back up your comments. That's what makes this Site so good - you may have to weed though the comments from some that may be self-proclaimed experts, but the true experieced people surface and give you a wealth of information, they are easy to identify. Thanks again.
penokee
Ps: I plan to religously add Power Service.

 

[DieselPower]

Your engine will thank you.

 

[Marcussen]

About the power service - I add 2 ounces to 4 gallons is that the correct amount? (I use 5 gallon cans but don't fill them all the way) I use off road Pink Diesel from a pump marked High Sulphur but I don't know the actual sulphur content I am guessing the sulphur level is going down like on road diesel. (same refinery etc.)

 

[cp1969]

I love reading the Pups posts. They are so refreshing. Just like the stack gas from a coal fired generating plant.

My day job is at a Western Star/Freightliner dealer so I'm around class 8 diesels all the time and have been for years and I'll tell you all too, that when refineries went from high sulfur fuel to 500ppm or less, pump failures went up along with injector scoring. Cummins especially suffered from premature seal failure, while Caterpillar suffered from cup failure. Older PT pump equipped NT engines needed replacement gasket sets for the pump and Caterpillar redesigned their injectors. Then the Fed went crazy with the new emission standards. In 2010, the exhaust air (from the muffler) will be cleaner than the intake air, but at what cost. 2005 engines have catalytic convertors as well as compound turbocharging (cat) and EGR recirculation systems (DDEC and MB). 2006 is the first round of the 2010 benchmark and the added cost of emissions related componentry will add around 10K to the price of the truck. Trucks will have, in addition to EGR, particulate filters and exhaust afterburners (Cat). By 2010, DDEC will cease to exist. Detroit Diesel can't meet the 2010 emission standards. HEUI engines like the Navastar Diesel (Powerstroke) and the HEUI Caterpillar engines rely on sulfur to lubricate the close tolerance surfaces in the pump and unit injectors and all the other engine manufacturers also rely on sulfur as a lubricant. Consequently, Caterpillar Engine Company has developed an additive for their engines and others that replaces the lubricity lost from the removal of sulfur. It's available from any Cat Engine dealer. I use it religiously in my Powerstroke and my Kubota, which, has a close tolerance rack style pump. I'd suggest using either the Cat additive, Powerservice or Lucas Fuel Treatment.

Someone told me that Sky Pup was a Sanatation Engineer. I'll buy that. He seems to sling great amounts of bull poop around.

Impressive post, right up until the time when you said sulfur was a lubricant, which unfortunately calls into question everything else you said.

Can you tell us what percentage of trucks suffered the problems you describe? I'm just curious, because like everyone else, I heard that all these problems were going to occur but then 1993 rolled around and I never met a single person who actually had problems.

Thanks for all the replies, especially Diesel Power and 5030. I appreciate that both of you have worked with Diesel Engines and have experience to back up your comments. That's what makes this Site so good - you may have to weed though the comments from some that may be self-proclaimed experts, but the true experieced people surface and give you a wealth of information, they are easy to identify. Thanks again.
penokee
Ps: I plan to religously add Power Service.

Not that SkyPup needs any defense from me but just because he didn't give you the answer you wanted does not mean he is wrong. If you think you have ID'd who the real experts are, that's cool. I understand completely the old 'you can lead a horse to water' thing; you're not the first who didn't like hearing that his beloved peace-of-mind giving additives aren't necessary and undoubtedly will not be the last. Another tip: You can put me and the other 'self-proclaimed' King on your ignore list and you will never again be polluted by any of our wayward thinking.

Please note this: Someone who works as a mechanic is only going to see units that HAVE problems. It WILL seem to him like the sky is falling, because all he sees are the broken units. Therefore I will submit that generally a mechanic is a less reliable source of information when it comes to topics such as this than someone such as SkyPup who has the necessary understanding of chemistry, physics, and engineering to actually understand what goes on when sulfur is removed from fuel.

 

[DieselPower]

Have you ever done a internet search to find the thousands and thousands of problems that LSD caused in the 90's? From the sounds of it you didn't. It is very common knowledge among anyone who works on diesel engines for a living. Just stop by and ask anyone who owns a large truck fleet how many problmes they had.

In fact Chevron even released a statement that the new ULSD is causing problems with seals like the LSD did in the 90's. http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/documents/elastomer_chevron_tb_2005Aug.pdf

Engine Damage From Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel


The net result ofhydro-processed low sulfur diesel fuel has been a reduction in its inherent lubricity. This loss of lubricity can result in high rates of fuel injection component wear and potential premature failure. Field experience with these fuels has led to the widespread use of lubricity additives that are introduced at the fuel distribution terminal or as an aftermarket fuel treatment. http://www.aem.org/Technical/PDF/diesel-fuels-rpt.pdf

In the United States the sulfur level of diesel fuel that is used for on-road purposes is limited to 0.05% by weight. This limit was mandated in October 1993 as a method to decrease particulate matter emitted from diesel powered vehicles. With the mandated Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) low-sulfur diesel fuel as well as the CARB (California Air Resources Board) low-sulfur, low aromatic diesel fuel emerging on the market, fleet operators began to encounter premature wear and/or failure of injector pumps in increasing numbers.

Stanadyne Diesel Systems on October 15, 1993 and Bosch Diesel Fuel Injection Service on December 3, 1993 issued Service Letters to distributors and dealers concerning the lack of lubricity caused by hydroprocessing to reduce the sulfur content in the new low-sulfur diesel. The pump manufacturers recommended use of lubricity additives to alleviate the serious damage occurring to their injection pumps. biodieselsummary

 

[MikePA]

Have you ever done a internet search to find the thousands and thousands of problems that LSD caused in the 90's? From the sounds of it you didn't. It is very common knowledge among anyone who works on diesel engines for a living. Just stop by and ask anyone who owns a large truck fleet how many problmes they had.

In fact Chevron even released a statement that the new ULSD is causing problems with seals like the LSD did in the 90's. http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/documents/elastomer_chevron_tb_2005Aug.pdf

No offense DieselPower, but did you read the Chevron article? It's the only recent article you mentioned and it contradicts much of the rest of your post.

"Should further elastomer failures occur, they are expected to be sporadic. Seals in some vehicles may fail while similar seals in other vehicles using the same fuel may not. Past experience indicates that the common denominator is expected to be nitrile rubber (Buna N) seals that have seen long service at high temperatures." Emphasis was in the original article.

and

"The reduction in sulfur content is not responsible for the problem."

"To date we have not seen evidence of peroxide formation, therefore, we believe that most cases are related directly to the reduction in the aromatics content of the fuel. This reduction is a result of increased hydrotreating to reduce fuel’s sulfur level to 15 ppm. Fuel additives do not appear to be a solution, since they do not change the aromatics content of the fuel." Emphasis mine.

"The seal failure is not related to fuel lubricity. Lubricity affects wear of metal parts. There is no relationship between the fuel lubricity level and the elastomer failure. Currently all fuels in the U.S. must meet a minimum lubricity level." Emphasis mine.

 

[HGM]

The tales arent all false regarding the <500ppm switch.. When the Power Stroke came out it happened about the same time as the fuel change.. They did have some serious problems with the injector bores scuffing, therfore the intensifier piston and barrel changed to a tungstine(?) carbide coated peice to reduce wear(it worked).. The mechanical fuel pumps had issues with o-rings swelling and seizing the pumps, causung them to actually break off.. This info is not only from the techs who saw it, but from Navistar and Ford engineering.. As for the injector cups... I have no idea how the fuel could cause trouble there, the fuel never touches the cups other than possibly the very top edge and even then to deteriorate brass??

We've all been through this before and you wont do any wrong by "playing" with a diesel fuel additive like PS.. I have seen GREAT results from it and Motorcraft cetane booster.. With the possible fuel economy increace, it can very well pay for itself.. No brainer..... Is it nescesary? Probably not, but it certainly wont hurt a pre '07 emission vehicle.. Try it, if you like it and get good results, great, if not, what have you lost...

As for Pup, like cp I'm not defending him but the chemistry in his posts usually hangs above my head but adds good information, like him or not.. I've noticed over the past few years that when I deal with the engineers and the techs, they can both say very similar things using TOTALY different languages, this can cause animosity between them, but with a translator its usually not that bad .. Sometimes the "educated" sarchasim is a bit raw, but if you get past it, it's not too bad.

 

[hsdfcu]

AS I have noted before, I would be vary careful with PS in diesel. If you use too much you bearing wear WILL go up.

I have seen increase wear using Amsoil PI and it stop when I switched to FP60.

 

[SkyPup]

Not only has the sulfur concentration gone from 500ppm way way down to 15ppm with ULSD, but the important aromatic hydrocarbon fraction has also gone way down from >30% content to <5% for the first time in the history of North American diesel refining (previously diesel fuel production was primarly just a waste product of gasoline production as very few petroleum companies in the USA even made straight-run diesel besides BP-ARCO), however now we've finally switched over to producing real diesel fuel), increasing the important paraffinic content and resulting in higher natural cetane rating, which also allows the 2-EthylHexylNitrate additive in Power Service to actually have even more effect on raising the cetane level a good 4-5 points (previous high aromatic content 500ppm LSD did not respond to the additve effects of 2-EHN because all the aromatics have such super low cetane ratings and thereby resulted in incomplete combustion and excessive soot formation.....).

That's what's so awesome about ULSD -> super low sulfur, low aromatics, higher cetane, more alkanes and alkenes, and some really first class diesel engines coming to market in the USA as a result of these wonderful changes.

ULSD is even way better than what many of the previous disgruntled posters even thought possible and it is going to stay that way for a long time to come in spite of all the crying over the missing sulfur!