Washout-proofing a ditch

[bcp]

Some rip-rap-ditches:

2015 Municipal Projects

Baker Hill Road The Schuyler County Soil and Water Conservation District was able to secure the funding to place over 370 tons of rip rap to stabilize 1,450’ of road ditch.

www.schuylerswcd.com

Bruce

 

[Bullwinkle123]

Some rip-rap-ditches:

2015 Municipal Projects

Baker Hill Road The Schuyler County Soil and Water Conservation District was able to secure the funding to place over 370 tons of rip rap to stabilize 1,450’ of road ditch.

www.schuylerswcd.com

Bruce

Those tonnage amounts sound crazy! And my driveway is longer than some of those projects. How many tons does a 7 cubic foot truckload of rock weight? Maybe it sounds like more than it is.

Anyway, good to know. I'm thinking I would have to substantially widen my ditch for rip-rap, which would mean a lot of tree work since the driveway is forested on both sides. Keeping trees out of the ditch is half my clearing battle.

 

[airbiscuit]

For about fifty bucks, you could give this a try. It would slow the velocity of the water and trap the gravel.

 

[CalG]

Around here. if the water slows down, it backs up and then runs over the road. Taking the road surface with it.

Got to think of it like an earth filled dam. If the water goes over the top, everything is lost.

 

[CalG]

Culverts pull water from the ditch, under the driveway via pipes, and put it out to the down-hill side of the driveway. There are multiple periodic culverts. I just need the ditch to handle the volume (which is a separate topic to some extent), and the intensity of the flow. I'm focused on the intensity as the water just rips my driveway out. If it wasn't for the odd shape constraints imposed by the bedrock near the surface I might just put in an ordinary steel half-pipe or other measure.

Are you trying to fix MY drive? ;-)

Sounds EXACTLY the same. Most of the afternoon was spent with blade and rake "tuning it up" .

Heavy rain forecast for the late evening tonight. and more rain tomorrow.

 

[dlctcg]

I'm thinking I would have to substantially widen my ditch for rip-rap, which would mean a lot of tree work since the driveway is forested on both sides. Keeping trees out of the ditch is half my clearing battle.

I can understand that... that's exactly what we had to do to create our drainage culverts... just under a 1/2 mile of it.... Since then I've been cutting the trees back a little further just to open things up a little more....

You can check with a local quarry they probably carry the 3" to 6" Rip-Rap which might work better in your drainage ditches... We went larger because I wanted the biggest, heaviest rock for the drainage trenches.... less likely to move / wash out. It really has held the driveway & dirt in place well...

Well... that is until Tropical Storm Elsa came in & dumped 5+ inches in hrs, & with all the other rain we've had, it destroyed part of the drive... But the Rip-Rap Stayed....

 

[airbiscuit]

Around here. if the water slows down, it backs up and then runs over the road. Taking the road surface with it.

Got to think of it like an earth filled dam. If the water goes over the top, everything is lost.

He has culverts. The water can still flow downhill, just at a slower speed, and may cause less erosion.

 

[i7win7]

If you've got a picture of what a "rip rap" lined ditch looks like that might help.

BEFORE

AFTER

 

[CalG]

He has culverts. The water can still flow downhill, just at a slower speed, and may cause less erosion.

I guess you would need to see it to understand how it goes.

Rain or melting snow
Flow goes down the ditch, crosses over through the culvers
Flow exceeds the ditch capacity due to culvert size ,some sort of slow down pinch point, or blockage. (vegetation or ice depending on the season)
Excess flow goes over the road, washing it down hill.

It's an every year event here at my place. I'm thinking about bringing in a ram hoe to bust up some ledge to allow a wider ditch a couple of feet further off the road.

Big $$$$

a couple loads of gravel every few years is cheap in comparison. And is needed anyway just to maintain.

We live on a hill ;-)

 

[airbiscuit]

X2 on more pics and a better description about what the problem is. My take from the description and picture is that the culverts are functioning okay and water is NOT flowing over the road. I take it that the water rushes down the narrow ditches to fast and waskes out the SIDES of his road.

If he has room, he could dig out a couple of swales halfway down his hills, to deflect some water, and slow it down.

Don't know if it is a 50 foot problem or a 1/4 mile problem. More pics and fuller description would help.

 

[Bullwinkle123]

For about fifty bucks, you could give this a try. It would slow the velocity of the water and trap the gravel.

View attachment 706543

I appreciate the graphical endeavor As CalG replied, slowing down the water would be bad. In fact I'm pretty sure my December washout was either because one culvert became overwhelmed, or because the ditch had enough debris in the form of ice/snow/other that the water couldn't move fast enough. There was a 15 foot section of driveway where the water just overflowed the ditch and went across the driveway. Though in that place it didn't wash out too much gravel because it was such a wide overflow. Maybe I just need another culvert, bedrock permitting. I don't know if they had to blast and/or jackhammer or whatever to place the original pipes.

Still I'll definitely take a look at those next time I'm at Home Depot.

 

[Bullwinkle123]

BEFORE
View attachment 706556
AFTER
View attachment 706557

Very nice, and definitely helps to picture how it might work for me except for the problematic aspects of widening the ditch.

 

[Bullwinkle123]

X2 on more pics and a better description about what the problem is. My take from the description and picture is that the culverts are functioning okay and water is NOT flowing over the road. I take it that the water rushes down the narrow ditches to fast and waskes out the SIDES of his road.

If he has room, he could dig out a couple of swales halfway down his hills, to deflect some water, and slow it down.

Don't know if it is a 50 foot problem or a 1/4 mile problem. More pics and fuller description would help.

Driveway's a third of a mile through deep forest on schist bedrock. That's why even widening the ditch is potentially a very expensive prospect. When I posted this topic I was hoping someone would have some "fit in the ditch" solutions. Those paver stones or whatever they're called might be one. There's actually some company that makes (or made, I'm not sure if they're still in business) cement "sheets" that you could lay down across the ditch and up the sides, which could be cured in place for a contoured erosion control. But I remember them as being very expensive (though perhaps less so than widening the ditch and putting in rip-rap), and again, I don't remember if they're still in business. Perhaps one of you have seen them too.

 

[fried1765]

I appreciate the graphical endeavor As CalG replied, slowing down the water would be bad. In fact I'm pretty sure my December washout was either because one culvert became overwhelmed, or because the ditch had enough debris in the form of ice/snow/other that the water couldn't move fast enough. There was a 15 foot section of driveway where the water just overflowed the ditch and went across the driveway. Though in that place it didn't wash out too much gravel because it was such a wide overflow. Maybe I just need another culvert, bedrock permitting. I don't know if they had to blast and/or jackhammer or whatever to place the original pipes.

Still I'll definitely take a look at those next time I'm at Home Depot.

An additional culvert is a very good idea.
A larger size will help to eliminate plugging.

 

[PILOON]

I also have a rather steep section of driveway and 20 years ago I had a contractor lay about 4 inches of re cycled asphalt over most of the drive.
He 'compacted' with a 10 wheel truck that had fairly bald tires.
The recycled asphalt re fused itself under hot sun and like I said has lasted over 20 years.
Our city has adopted that same procedure on all their hilly gravel roads but use a vibrating roller to compact and fuse it.

Works just great.

Bonus is (around here) that re cycled asphalt is cheaper than crushed stone, but cartage is the same.

 

[fried1765]

I also have a rather steep section of driveway and 20 years ago I had a contractor lay about 4 inches of re cycled asphalt over most of the drive.
He 'compacted' with a 10 wheel truck that had fairly bald tires.
The recycled asphalt re fused itself under hot sun and like I said has lasted over 20 years.
Our city has adopted that same procedure on all their hilly gravel roads but use a vibrating roller to compact and fuse it.

Works just great.

Bonus is (around here) that re cycled asphalt is cheaper than crushed stone, but cartage is the same.

I sure do wish that re-cyled asphalt was cheaper here.

 

[dodge man]

Sounds like you need bigger culverts or a second one. I have two driveways at my place. One paved and another gravel one that leads to a small storage building. The gravel drive had a single culvert that was to small and to short. People turned around in that drive and crushed the end. The water during a big rain would over top the culvert and run down the gravel drive and wash it out. I put in two new culverts instead of one and made them 10 feet longer.

In the pic is where I was installing the new culverts. They have handled the flow so far. The drive way runs left to right in the pic and our main road is on the right.

 

[3Ts]

As for getting the water thru the culverts, there are some posts in TBN here somewhere, where they used old guard rail from road construction projects. That would allow you to drive over them, wouldn't be very deep so bedrock should not be an issue and will control the water and prevent washouts as the water flows across the top of the road. It sounds like what you need is a lined water bar.

guard rail water bar

 

[dirttoys]

I guess you would need to see it to understand how it goes.

Rain or melting snow
Flow goes down the ditch, crosses over through the culvers
Flow exceeds the ditch capacity due to culvert size ,some sort of slow down pinch point, or blockage. (vegetation or ice depending on the season)
Excess flow goes over the road, washing it down hill.

It's an every year event here at my place. I'm thinking about bringing in a ram hoe to bust up some ledge to allow a wider ditch a couple of feet further off the road.

Big $$$$

a couple loads of gravel every few years is cheap in comparison. And is needed anyway just to maintain.

We live on a hill ;-)

I work on a half mile drive on a big hill, feel your pain. Dumb question, if the culverts are bottle neck, maybe replace the highest one with a size larger, then the next one as needed?

Edited to add: Gotta have ditches lower than the road, and they must carry worst case water. If you can't make ditches deeper, have to make the road higher. I broke down and bought a dump trailer, makes the gravel cost a little less painful.

best,


ed

 

[airbiscuit]

Just to better understand your problem, doesn't your washout show water running alongside your road - not across the road?

Washout across your road = undersized culverts.
Washout alongside your road = Water moving too fast / ditch too narrow/ ditch material not stable enough.