Water in my crawl space: how best to drain it?

Investorguy · Mar 23, 2006

( InvesterGuy,

Two points;

I still have not seen any reply with regards to elevation. Do you have any area on your property that is below the footer?? You can use a lazer level and go in steps of the limit of the level. Or, setup a step ladder in an area you suspect is lowest. Place a 4' level near the top step catching the paint tray devise. Point this back at the house. Level the level. Now look down the top of the level like a gun site. Note the point where it intersecs the house/grade near the house. Compare the distance at the step ladder to the distance at the house.

Second, with your foundation having that wood wall sitting on the footer?? I don't see how you could fill any. You are with in inches of wood and dirt/water. Descride that wood wall, what's going on on the other side of it? because it either above grade or below.

Answer these two questions and your solution will come alot quicker. )

First one, yes, I do. There's a ditch about 225 feet away from the house that the current footing drain runs into. There is a steady downward slope to the yard in front of my house out to the ditch.

Second one, you are correct. That wood wall would likely have to come up at some point. The water is probably 3 inches from it at this point, and the water level stays constant throughout the wet season, or at least whenever I've checked it. My father in law said that the real fix would be to jack up the house, tear out that wall (it's actually a double wall, about about 3 feet apart that runs the span of the house), and build up the cement a foot or so before buildign it back up. That sure doesn't sound too fun, but he says it wouldn't be that bad.

I tried calling the person we bought the house from but their # had changed. I will try to get the # of the builder from the county permit office, see what I can find there.

Highbeam · Mar 23, 2006

"My father in law said that the real fix would be to jack up the house, tear out that wall (it's actually a double wall, about about 3 feet apart that runs the span of the house), and build up the cement a foot or so before buildign it back up."

Oh boy, that isn't the way I would do it. You just build another wall right beside the original starting with concrete at the proper height above grade. If the location of the original wall was somehow very important to the joists above, then a temporary wall or two can be built to support the floor while you rebuild the original wall.

HankC · Mar 23, 2006

Both Paddy and Eddie have very good points.
Ideally you would dig a perimiter drain around the house and have it drain to a point lower then your footing, that's how my house is set up. This could be expensive and time consuming but the best option. IMHO filling your crawl space with gravel etc. is not a solution.
I had a similar problem with my daughters house (a year after she bought it), what we did is to dig a trench inside the basement around the peremiter of the foundation about a foot deep into this we place PVC drain pipe and covered it with pea stone and vapor barrier. At one end of the crawl space we dug a hole approx. 2.5-3 ft deep 2x2 ft wide and lined it with brick the drain pipe ended there opened. This served as a sump into which we placed a sump pump. During wet season the pump works frequently but their basement is dry (the bigger the sump the less frequentLY the sump pump will cycle).
Several comments: Down spouts from rain gutters should be set up to divert water well away from your foundation. Mold and mildew is a real problem, fungal infestation of wood can be disasterous. Not a bad idea to vent you crawl space if you're not already doing that.

Not an architect or pro just my 2 cents and good luck,

HankC

Paddy · Mar 23, 2006

OK, good so far.

Either your perimiter drain or the drain pipe is not working. Or both /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I know 225' sounds like a longway but a trencher would have you a trench in 4hr for about $200. This time use 6" ridgid, that corigated stuff is tough to use where your grade drop is so slight, 5-6' in 225'. Make sure this one starts at or below footer height. In the trench at the house, check to see what kind of perimiter drain you have. Is at the bottom?? Filled with mud?? If it's junk, I'm afaid you will need to replace it. This time use mostly gravel to back fill, all but say the top foot. Use gravel rated for drainage. I'v seen chip & dust use and it holds water like a pond!.
This is a sure way of a good flowing silt free perimeter drain

From inside the crawl and all a long the walls dig a small 3" trench sloping so that all leads to the point where the new drain pipe is on the other side of the wall. Drill a 1" hole to drain the crawl or beter yet dig under the footer.

Good luck

Ronbo · Mar 23, 2006

You could support the wall temporairily. You then drill and epoxy rebar into the footer. You then set a row of cinder blocks on the rebar and grouth them. You can then rebuild your wall on top of the blocks.

Ron

Paddy · Mar 23, 2006

Ronbo,

You got it. No one said this wall needs to be completely removed and then rebuild. I would take on a 4' section at a time. A hydro floor jack and a laminated set of 4x4 would catch a few joists and allow for 2 or 3 concret blocks in the row, 2 cources high. Then let it set a day. A few treated shims to take the load and "move over a few feet. Take a break any time! This wall was build this way to skip a beam/pier. Notice the joists direction. A bit sleazy in the construction world. A beams and piers could be put in but then your temp suport would e bit longer, say 10-12' depending how many 2x12 you use.

I don't want to scare InvesterGuy. This is really just simple grunt stuff, trench/perimter drain and replace the wood wall. If you plan to live there awhile it's the only thing to do. If you plan to sell in 2-3 years, sump pump.

Highbeam · Mar 23, 2006

We see alot of these pony walls in crawl spaces up here under newer construction supporting long engineered joist spans. It is cheaper than sending actual beams down there. My 1999 home was one of the last I have seen with actual 4x4 posts supporting 4x8 beams. I like the post and beams better for ease of moving around in the crawl.

ByronBob · Mar 23, 2006

I know he doesn't want to cob the job any but we should start simple and evolve into complex situations later. If he built the house he must have prints someplace. The prints would tell him if drains are inside and outside the footings.

Where do the downspouts go. In the pictures they seem to go underground somewhere. If this is the case then you need to get them going away from the house.

A sump pump and such is a low cost beginning. A few hundred and away you go.

If this fails you can get a ditch digger and reroute drains to the ditch. Again a little more cost but a possibility none the less.

Raising the house, pouring walls, footers and the like to me seems extreme until everything else fails. Ventilation is key and it seems the crawl has a bunch from the pictures.

EddieWalker · Mar 23, 2006

( I know he doesn't want to cob the job any but we should start simple and evolve into complex situations later.

Raising the house, pouring walls, footers and the like to me seems extreme until everything else fails. Ventilation is key and it seems the crawl has a bunch from the pictures. )

I agree with this statement allot.

Why rebuild the foundation when there's nothing wrong with it? We're getting away from the problem here and focusing on the wall. If it's solid concrete, there's still the problem of water in the crawlspace.

He has only one goal here. Get rid of the water. Anything else is a distraction. Focus on the problem.

WATER IN THE CRAWLSPACE.

Why is it there?

How to stop it, or minimize it?

What to do with what gets in there?

Eddie

RFB · Mar 23, 2006

I think that Eddie's logic is clear.

Beyond that, are there no disclosure laws in your locale. This seems like a problem that should have been disclosed up-front to any prospective buyer.

inveresk · Mar 24, 2006

Just seen your crawl space photographs. The problem, rightly identified by you and others, is that the crawl space is way too deep, so much so it's below the water table for part of the year. In my view, rhe right solution is fill to take the solum level above the water table at its highest.

This, I believe, is a better solution than trying to install drains around the house to try to locally reduce the water table under it. The crawl space should never have been constructed as deep in the first place.

Curlydave has a good point in that the cripple wall kerb will be too low if you add fill. I can't see from the photograph if the cripple wall is simply supporting your floor joists mid span or whether it's a shear wall. If it has ply on the other side, it's a shear wall and you'll need a professionally designed solution to ensure structural continuity as likely it's a shear wall above too. If there's no ply, it's not a shear wall.

I'd consider taking out the cripple wall altogether and replacing it with steel posts and beams to support the joists. Labourwise, prefabricating them in manageable lengths to mandhandle down the hatch, with bolted connections and the posts in turn anchor bolted onto the kerb, would be a fairly quick install with no wet trades. If you needed the steel posts and beams to have shear resistance, you could shot fire ply one side.

This, too, should be a professionally designed solution to take account of your loads, spans and local building codes and to keep you on the right side of your lender, house insurer and, when it comes time to sell, all relevant codes and regulations.

Your going to need quite a quantity of upfill. Rather than navigate steps and traffic wheel barrows through the house to the location of the hatch, it might be worth considering. cutting a larger temporary opening at the vents, maybe more than one, and chuting the fill in from the perimeter so you can rake it around.

Paddy · Mar 24, 2006

I think this whole discussion of filling the crawl is missing the point. With a working perimiter drain, he could have a bacement. What good would it do to add 12" -24" of fill other than a lot work moving dirt on your hands and knees? If you had a boat with a hole, would you install a larger pump or fix the leak? This house has a few design flaws, non working drain and a wood wall in the crawl that does not have suficiet clearence from the dirt. These issue need fixed, every thing else are just bandages that might not help.

Let's quantify the the back fill. 1600 sq ft by 1 ft of fill= 1600 cubic ft of dirt or 59 yards of fill!! At 24" 118 yards!! can you imagine moving 3 large dump trucks of fill (12" fill) let alone 6 large trucks.

Filling would cost far more than doing right

Patrick

inveresk · Mar 24, 2006

To convert it into a watertight basement is certainly an option but from the photographs and using assumed joist spacing at 16" c/s as a gauge, I estimated the clear height at around 4'. Even dry, it remains a crawl space that you can't stand up in and that you access through a floor hatch and down a ladder. I question how much more useful that is than a shallower crawl space that doesn't involve emasculating the landscaping to make dry.

I think a more appropriate analogy to the hole in the boat is to make a comparison with a house on a tidal plain. If the water laps at the threshold every time the tide comes in, are you better diverting and damming the water or raising the affected parts of the house out of it?

Clearly there are different ways to go about solving the problem and more than one of them would work but whichever one is adopted needs the sanction of a building professional.

Highbeam · Mar 24, 2006

It wouldn't be disclosed because it is new construction and hasn't been a problem. You give the builder too much credit to be honest and proactive about these things.

"If he built the house he must have prints someplace. The prints would tell him if drains are inside and outside the footings."

There will be some kind of print with lots of typical details. BUT, that has little to do with what is actually built. I have no less than 10 single family residents on my desk to approve and the architects that drew up the plans seem to think that their job ends at the downspout. The drainage between the downspout and the ditch is a field decision. Our building official claims that once the storm pipe goes horizontal that he is no longer responsible, this is how the downspouts and footing drains so often get done half-a$$ed, they fall in the middle of two inspectors with neither claiming responsibility.

Parttimer · Mar 24, 2006

Most of the replies have good suggestions in them. But...... get all the facts. Dig down and locate the drains to verify elevation, take some elevations around the yard. Speak to a "local" Civil Engineer who specializes in drainage, most deal with drainage as a large part of their job. The engineer will take into account all of which has been spoken here and give you their best choice.

On the issue of mold, vapor barrier, (6 mil. poly barrier overlapped, along with what looks like plenty of ventalation (which can be verified with the engineer for code adherence) should protect your house. You are not going to stop all of the vapor/moisture, but that is what the vents are for.

Dave

ps. there sure are alot of engineers out there.

RFB · Mar 24, 2006

The house is fairly "new" to him, and if he is the first owner, then he has a substantive claim against the builder.

A defect that cannot appear until specific environmental/weather conditions occur (a roof cannot collapse due to inadequate snow load capability until it snows.) could easily toll an initial warranty period. A key consideration for this is prompt notification of the responsible party(s) upon discovery of the problem. The amount of water in his cs is illustrative of poor design/engineering (for the given environment) or poor execution.

The bottom line is that there is a very good possibility that that he really does not "own" this problem, but that it belongs to the contractor. If I were the owner, I would be speaking with an engineer AND an attorney.

inveresk · Mar 24, 2006

I agree, rfb. It might also be worth a formal approach to the builder first, alert him in writing to the problem and ask him for his proposal and a timetable for dealing with it. If he says he's not interested, then the rotweillers in suits can be called in.

Highbeam · Mar 24, 2006

I see your point. Is there any responsibility for investorguy to act in the meantime to prevent further damage?

Investorguy · Mar 24, 2006

I don't know guys. Seeking damages may be wishful thinking. We bought the house "as is" from the first owners who had it built. The inspector knew about the water issue but he said it was no big deal.

If I used Steel supports in place of the wood supports running down the middle of the house, would I not have to build up the concrete?

I talked to an engineer. He was mostly structural and said this was not his area of experties, but he suggested we throw a sump pump in a hole and pump the water out onto the lawn and see how that goes. Of course, that would involve trenching inside the crawl, probably not something I want to do until it dries anyway.

inveresk · Mar 24, 2006

Rather than raise the kerb of the cripple wall, I'd concrete encase the base of the 3 or 4 steel posts that would likely be needed and make sure any exposed steel was properly paint protected.