Water well prob, need ideas....

[tommu56]

MotorSeven
One of the local fire company's had the same wash away problem with their dry hydrant they put a precast man hole about 10 ft away from the creek and ran 24" precast concrete pipes out to the water and draft out of the manhole.
(it helps that they have a member that is an excavating contractor)

I do feel your pain I had a well drilled at my cabin and only get about 20 gallons per day not an hour or minuet but a day.
I use to cart water for like 20 years in an IBC tank on a trailer to a spring 6 miles away.
Between the well, pump. pipe,wire, and cistern my wallet is a lot thinner.
In hind site I could have bought lots of fuel to fetch the water with for what I have sunk in the ground (pun intended).


PILOON
It sounds like you are using polyethylene pipe not polyvinylchloride +PVC
tom

 

[atgreene]

From what you describe I have to believe that if you have sand in the pump (or did I mis-understand) There should be no sand in the pump or in the filters. Sounds to me like your pump may be cavitating (starving for water). Have you thought of putting a couple pick-up tubes in so that the foot valves/well point isn't pulling so hard through the screen. I've seen this done a couple times.

Here's what I have used on a few jobs. They last a few years and seem to do well filtering out sand/silt.

well point from Northern Tool + Equipment

You will loose some air through a check valve especially if you have had sand come through it. It's hard to get them to seal tight after sand and time have had their way with them.

It's hard to beat a couple concrete risers to allow you to have a clean well to draw from.

Good luck.

 

[charlz]

What is the GPM of the pump? I'm still thinking insufficient water supply. The sand etc has settled and water can't transfer through it fast enough to keep up with the pump.

 

[dex3361]

1) I would put a vacuum/pressure guage on the suction side of the pump and check the vacuum/pressure. If I am reading it right it is 10 feet in elevation from the pump to the well point. That would give a -4.3 PSI to pull it up to the inlet of the pump. When pulling from the tank you have probably 1 PSI (with 2.31' of elevation in the tank).

2) As others have stated you may have a leak in the suction side to the well or a restriction if the vacuum is greatly under the -4.3 PSI. The maximum you can pull water is about -14 PSI (in theory).

3) It is likely that you have worn the impellar clearances with all of the sand and that is why you don't pump as much from the well as from the tank. The clearances may look fine but you would actually need to measure them acurately to tell if they are worn or not.

Hope you get it lined out

 

[MotorSeven]

AT, that is the exact sand point I am using, even bought it thru NT.
Charlz, I can twist the sand point around easy with my hands, so it does not feel that it is packed around it too tight.
Tom, a concrete off creek riser type system might work, if we don't get hit with another drought this year. This little "crik" stops flowing & goes underground druing the dry times. Even then I had a few inches of water covering the sand & entire ecosystem w'fish that must have been real appreciative..........

"3) It is likely that you have worn the impellar clearances with all of the sand and that is why you don't pump as much from the well as from the tank. The clearances may look fine but you would actually need to measure them acurately to tell if they are worn or not."

Dex, this is where I think I am heading. My neighbor has an almost new pump he said I could borrow. I think I am going to sawzall some pvc here soon & swap it out & see if the cavitation goes away. If it does, I am going to get a submersible pump.

 

[PILOON]

tommu66;

I always use the blue HD line. Believe it is PolyB-great pressure rating, 1/4" wall and indistructable! Specks claim it can handle freezing as well.
Around here the city accepts it in lieu of schedule copper for connection to mains.
Being heavy wall, heat is a must for fitting barb connections.

My biggest problem has been hose clamps , while stainless the screws that tighten are not and they generaly rot away after about 6-8 yrs. I generally use 2 per barb fitting but that still is not bullet proof.
Not fun having to chainsaw a hole in the ice to retrieve a pump at -25 deg just to replace a clamp!

In theory that pump could draw 1 atmosphere or 30 ft.
In practice a bit less.
Impellers are not as tight a tolerance as you'd expect but rather move the water by blade design and RPM's.
For poor GPM situations the good ole piston pump is still the best.

Most of our lake pumps are deep well submersibles that we mount in a cradle and simply toss them into the lake.
No priming, just throw the switch and instant water. Endless supply and our lake is all spring fed so we have pure H2O!

Many installs use a heated 'tracing wire' inside the pipe that is barely buried (very rocky terrain). The tracing line is self regulating, looks kinda like 300 ohm TV lead and heats when below 35 deg in 12" increments. Runs 6 watts per ft and can actually thaw a frozen line.

Enough ramblings.

Good luck!

 

[Egon]

[QUOTEWhat is the GPM of the pump? I'm still thinking insufficient water supply. The sand etc has settled and water can't transfer through it fast enough to keep up with the pump.][/QUOTE]

Now that might be an idea with merit.

maybe dig out the sand and replace it with some coarser gravel.

 

[tommu56]

PILOON

My old cabin had the same issue the poly pipe and barb fittings.
we tried 2 hose clamps and bailing wire even 3 clamps 2 around pipe and one between clamps to pull them together.

I was at the plumbing supply house and asked what other type of fitting was available they showed me these Camble fittings Campbell Manuacturing Catalog Page F4 Hanflo Poly Pipe Compression Fittings

The only issue was it was like yours above ground covered with stones were we could and if it did freeze (we always tried let it trickle to prevent that) some times the fitting would brake.

tom

 

[studor]

JMHO --you are losing the water in the pipe from the creek to the pump -- it should have stayed at 30 psi indefinitely -- that hard stuff glued is not usually recommended for suctions because it frequently leaks at glue joints. It takes the pump a long time to clear the air out of the pipe each time (like 2 minutes per five foot of suction or thereabouts). One of your original thoughts was new pipe tossed in the creek wasn't it? Might be time to try with a piece of poly hose and a little Bulliet mixed with cold water

 

[Western]

I think I would have to address the stinger (if I understood your layout),

I would remove the sand from the pit and put in larger rock in some kind of fashion to reduce the sand load. It may only take a few microns of sand blasting in the pump "peller" race area to give you the same problems.

I vote with the poster on the reservoir idea, or some kind of "settling " tank

BUT on the flip side, if your pumping sand through, a bigger pump and you would have the best water sandblasting rig in the county! (glass half full kinda thing)

Sorry trying de caf today...

 

[WayneB]

I have used the same type of well point that you have and we have never had a problem with it. I have the jet pump (it is a sears 1 hp pump) and I have it located about three feet from the end of the pipe coming out of the ground. It is much easier for the pump to push the water than it is to pull water.

If you are using fittings I would suggest using plumbers pipe seal and not tape, just makes a better seal. If you are leaking anywhere along the line it will show up in the pump time to shut off. Normally you will see air in the water lines if there is a leak.

I used 1 ｼ galvanized pipe from the point up to the pump. Then from the pump out to the camp I am using 1" black plastic. We are pumping up 185 feet to the camp with about 50 psi at the end of the line.

I have also added a sediment and carbon filter to the system

 

[MotorSeven]

Sorry boys, I have to leave you with a cliff hanger. Headed to Manitoba for a week or so. I'll get back on the water system when I return. I do appreciate all of the ideas batted around here, it has helped a ton!

RD

 

[MotorSeven]

I'm back! Had fun in Minnesota & North Dakota with the flood & blizzard, but the trip went good.

I attacked the water system yesterday. Couldn't find a replacement impeller, so I put a new identical pump on......NO Change. Then I put a new and bigger pressure tank on it.....also NO Change.

Went to the creek & pulled the sand point up again.......Clogged I am confused because this was the first thing I checked when this problem started. It was clogged then, so I pressure washed it inside and out, put it back down & the problem was still there.
So, I took off the sand point and stuck a foot valve on instead.....VIOLA....the system Works Perfect!

Now, today I am going into Knoxville to pick-up a 36"x8' concrete culvert. I am going to stand it on one end, pour a floor in it using quickcrete. Then a small bit on a rotary hammer drill to perforate the bottom & sides up to about 3'. Using backhoe the sand is getting removed, then culvert set down in the hole vertically. The sand will be moved back around it to lock it in place when the creek floods. My foot valve goes into the culvert about 1' off the bottom. Then I will make a concrete lid for the top of the pipe that can be removed to service the valve and clean out any sediment that will migrate into the cylinder....

What do y'all think?

RD

 

[MotorSeven]

And here it is, the best part about it is that it was FOC! (free of charge)
The place told me that any damaged stuff(and they had one whole corner of the yard of it) thay have to pay a Company to come break it up and haul it off.....usually in the area of $10K. So this culvert has some linear cracks in it but intact, and it has a wire mesh inside so it is not going to fall apart. They even loaded it for me & wouldn't even let me buy them lunch .
Once I get the backhoe lined up I'll shoot some pics of the install & finished product. Until then I'll be drawing water directly from the creek using the foot valve.

RD

 

[CurlyDave]

I sure hope this works out for you.

I knew someone with a place near Lake Tahoe in CA. It was right on a river.

What he mentioned was that some people who drew their water from the river would get the "bleeding sh*ts" every spring when the snow melted and brought an entire winter's worth of animal doo-doo down into the river in spring.

 

[Egon]

So a Caisson it is!

 

[J_J]

RD,

I am a little puzzled about how you can not draw water through the sand filter. The only reason that you might not be able to draw water is that the filter holes are being plugged by the sand. Now, are you trying to keep out the sand or don't care. You said that you put a foot valve at the bottom of the line. Did it have any kind of filter on the bottom of it. like a brass cone shape? If not, you will really draw sand now until all the fine stuff is gone. Do you have a check valve at the pump? If so, it should be vertical. You did say that you have fixed all leaks on the suction side.

Years ago when I had a well jet guy, jet down a well, he did that in about 20 min, and I saw he did not put a filter or foot valve on the end of the pipe. I ask why, and he said it will just clog up and give you trouble. He also said that over time, what you will have is a pocket of water. He pumped that well for a couple of min, until all the sugar sand was gone. It has been good since then. So he must have did everything right.

Someone mentioned about other well points installed. I have seen as many as three well points n a ten ft triangle feeding to one line going to the pump. That is done when the sand will not filter the water fast enough. Not all sand is the same.

 

[MotorSeven]

Curly, we do not drink this water, only use it for washing, bathing & flushing. We have an artesian spring on our place that we 4wheel to and fill 5 gal water bottles.
JJ, yes I didn't post a pic, but the sand point looks like is was dipped in wet concrete, plugged solid. We used lime rock sand, and I think it is causing a chemical reaction to the mesh/metal in the sand point. I have temporarily attached a foot valve just under the surface of the water just so we can draw until Egons "cassion" is rigged. It will be set in the creek vertical and about 6' of the culvert below the surface of the water & 2' sticking out. I decided to back fill the area around the culvert with gravel instead of sand. I realise that over time, sand/sediment will find it's way into the culvert. If it does and reaches the foot valve, I will have a septic Co come suck the bottom out, sanitize & cover it back up.
Hmmmm, the check valve just in front of the pump is horizontal not vertical, why is that critical? I thought about adding a second sand point, but kinda figured both would also clog, so I opted to try the cassion.

My neighbor did some calculating, 30" of culvert will hold 36 gal & change per foot. A 5' column of water should be adequate to keep from sucking it dry during high use such as watering the garden. Water will always be flowing into it from the holes drilled, so I am confident that this will work.

RD

 

[J_J]

MotorSeven,

Are you going to jet the culvert down, or do it with a BH?

Was that crud on your filter kind of sticky? It sounds like clay particles, and that will clog any filter. On the check valve, I was told many years ago that the vertical setting was a better position, because it will seat better. I had a problem one time with prime, and I switched from horizontal to vertical, and the trouble went away. Some of the check valve seating arrangements are brass to brass, and others are brass to rubber washer, and the PVC checks are plastic to rubber. Sand will cause some some problems with both.

You still need to filter the sand somehow, even if it's a small sand filter on the bottom of the foot valve. The culvert will also fill with clay/sand over time. At the point that the pipe goes in the culvert, I would put a removable fitting so you can unhook the down pipe and pull it out for inspection or cleaning.

Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[Egon]

"cassion"

There are many such installations in situations just like yours.

Pay close attention to the gravel/sand pack around the concrete pipe as it can/may act as a filter and plug up over time. That means digging out and replacing.

A sump pump placed on the bottom while disturbing the bottom with a pole may allow you to clean out the silt that has settled in the bottom and save the cost of a vacuum truck.

you could tell if its working by the colour of the pump discharge.