welder question

[reggiejr]

Hi all,
Ive been looking at welders for a while now for general fab work and other various repairs on my implements ect.
From the reading I've done on here the 120v migs seem to be pretty limited to light work and they are pretty pricey too.
The power arc 200 caught my eye and seems to be more of what i was looking for as far as versatility and the price and no gas to worry about either.
Classic wiring problem though I've got only 120v available in my garage.
If a had the money i would run a bigger under ground line to my garage but its a pretty good distance from the house and it would probably cost big money.
I do have a 6200 running watt 9500 starting watt generator with a 240v 30amp outlet could this power a welder like this if so could it damage my generator?
Im still trying to figure my options thanks for any advise.

 

[deereman75]

If you can swing the extra, I would get the stickweld 250 from longevity insted of the power arc. The adjustable hot start and arc force are really nice. I know they can be ran on a genset, I run mine on a 30 amp breaker, and it has no trouble running the biggest rods I use. (7018 1/8)

 

[Groo]

Another vote for just run the generator.

Can you get your implements and other projects into the garage? If so, stick with MIG. There are several machines that can be run on 120 or 240 volt. that would make it so you only have to fire up the genny for the big stuff, and not for tacking and thin walled repairs.
here is one; Welders Direct: Millermatic 211 w/FREE Stuff
I'm guessing you will be happier with a machine like that than a stick welder as someone with no or little experience.
You can also use self shielding wire for outdoors, but I didn't care for it when I tried it. Maybe that was just because I was using it with a crappy welder.

If most of your work will be outdoors, then go stick. If you think you may be working with Aluminum in the future, I'd go TIG.

 

[mrmikey]

If you do decide to go with a generator to run your welder be aware that a lot of generators do not produce a true sine wave which is bad for an invertor type welder.
If you can swing it, I'd get rid of the generator and get a welder/generator combo. Just my opinion....Mike

 

[Redneck in training]

I don't have personal experience but I thought that inverters care less what the shape of the AC is. Transformers do care not necessarily about the perfect sine wave but wave symmetry. Asymmetrical wave contains DC component that might burn the transformer.

My thinking is that inverters rectify the AC and then chop it (switch it on/off) to produce required voltage and current.

 

[Ken45101]

Repairs on your implements? I assume that means fairly heavy stuff, well beyond what a 120v unit can do and maybe more than your generator can handle? I haven't tried running mine on the generator yet.

I too wanted to work on tractor and skid steer attachments. I went with the Miller 211 and I'm quite happy with it but fortunately my shop has 220 50 amp service in it.

Be aware that flux core wire costs 3-4x what solid wire costs. OTOH, you can buy a lot of wire for the cost of a 25/75 bottle.

Ken

 

[cowski]

i would recommend you get a ac/dc thunderbolt and run a wire to your shop.but for using what you have ,i have a 140 everlast that i use and like.it would work for you too.

 

[Texasmark]

I have a Miller 200A acdc 220v stick welder that sometimes I use on fencing so I power it with a gas powered generator when out of the shop. I had a 5500w unit and even using 3/32 sticks it just didn't have adequate power. I have a 6500w unit now and it works ok.

So, if you plan on using a gas power unit to run your welder, you will need about 10kw to do an adequate job with larger sticks that are more suited to large welding jobs, otherwise you will get hoarse uttering expletives while trying to do what you need done.

HTH,
Mark

 

[HCJtractor]

I have your same issue and have some of the units others recommend. I have a Powerarc 200 and it works great. I have not run it off a generator but believe it would do fine. I also have a Miller 211 (110/220V) and it also is great. I would say it is easier to make pretty welds than the Powerarc, but of course I use shielding gas indoors. I often run it off a generator w/o any problems. I power it with a Miller Bobcat welder/generator. As you can see, I have lots of options. The Powerarc is really smooth and for what it costs, it seems it would be worth a try as a great starter unit. Running power to your building may be cheaper than you think, especially if you do most of the labor yourself and just have an electrician design it and maybe do the part that requires skill. Plugging in to an outlet certainly is more convenient than having to crank up a generator. If you do get power, the 211 is hard to beat, but it is way more expensive and demands a generator bigger than yours. You could get a Powerarc and run power for the cost of a 211. I also agree an alternative is a welder/generator, but unless you go used, expect to pay $1500 minimum. My advice is work on a proper power source first, and then the welder options are unlimited.

 

[Texasmark]

I have power to my building. What I said was that when I needed to do some fence work, and since I have abandoned wood and gone exclusively with steel posts, and also when I am doing shelters for equipment, welding steel purlins to other support structure and all, I use the portable power and the same stick welder that I use in the building, off my 220V AC service, for heavy work, using my MIG's for light stuff.

Mark

 

[reggiejr]

Thanks for all the input so far everyone.
I have used quite a few welders over the years both mig and stick so i'm pretty confident with the welding aspect but i never really payed attention to the makes or the particulars of the welders I've used just settings ect.
They were not mine so i really haven't learned much about brands and different models comparing specs and such so all the specs look like Chinese to me.
I have tried one small flux core 120v miller years ago and i wasn't to impressed but i figured technology probably improved with those by now?
Everything else I've used has been 220v and that seemed to be the way to go but i cant spend big money on a top of the line model like we have at work i just want to dub around on my own stuff once in a while at home.
If i were to just go ahead and replace my line to the garage for a 220 welder what gauge wire would you guys recommend?
The line feeding the garage now is a 10-2 i'm not sure if that is adequate or not for a welder.
My generator would be easy for me to use because its right there were i would be welding and it would give me an excuse to run it once in awhile between outages.Thanks again for all the advise :thumbsup:

 

[cowski]

a 150 amp inverter welder will just about max your generator at full power.a welder any bigger would be a waste ,unless you plan on upgrading the gen or run a 220 wire.i still like my 140 everlast.it will run on 110 or 220 on a 5500 watt generator.if you get one plan on upgrading the welding Leeds.

 

[Groo]

the 211 only calls for 25 amps of power. Millermatic® 211 Auto-Set? with MVP? - MIG - Miller That generator should handle it fine.

If you want power in the garage, run a sub-panel. Doing that is on my to-do list. I had 120v power in the garage, but the chain-link fence pole snipped that wire, and I also want to weld out there, so I need both 240 and 120. Might as well just run the panel. I will want another sub panel in the shed I plan on using as a pottery studio too, so I plan on running from the house to the shed to the garage. As for what line; it depends on how much power and how far.

for 100 amp power, probably single or double aught for the hots with aluminum wire. Neutral and ground can probably be down-gauged a bit, especially with these types of loads were all the power save for the big stuff could be handled on 1 or 2 breakers.

 

[cowski]

sorry i should have said stick inverter welder.

 

[Texasmark]

On running your wire, one needs the distance and the anticipated load plus whether or not it is buried vs airborne. Then there is the insulation type. I have a book that gives the line sizes for a 2% voltage drop over a given distance.

On sizing the N and the safety ground, the N is there for unbalanced loads. A balanced load from a 220v service would be one where you either were running a 220v appliance or you had two equal wattage 110v loads connected to opposite sides of the feed and N. In this case they feed each other off the mains (two hot lines) and the N is really out of the picture.

However, if you have one with say a 220 watt 110v load hooked to one main and N and a 110 watt load hooked to the other main and N then the N would have to carry the extra amp that the 220watt load needs. The safety ground should never carry current unless you have a "hot chassis" in an all metal electric drill or something metallic that has a main accidentally connected to the case. Then it would have to be large enough to carry enough current to keep that hot chassis from developing enough voltage to shock you.

That's the way I remember it but it has been awhile.

HTH,
Mark

 

[Groo]

That is how I remember it too. If you are running a 20 amp load on one leg and a 5 amp load on the other, the Neutral will only have to carry 15 amps. Don't be surprised if they try to sell you 00/4 to run the sub-panel. as explained above, it is unnecessary. 00/2 -2/2 should be more than enough, but I'm not 100% sure what code is for this. If you have a choice between 120v and 240v in the future, pick the 240v tool and keep an eye on keeping things as balanced as possible are good practices in general and should keep the electrical bill down some. I'd probably run lighting on one leg and outlets on the other leg for 120v circuits in the garage and you should be more than fine. If my math is right, you should be able to safely run 3x20 amp 120v breakers per leg (6 total) and still be perfectly safe in a worst case scenario with a 2 gauge neutral. I believe ground is required to be a minimum of 6 gauge Cu, 2 gauge Al is the equivalent of 4ga CU, so that is more than enough for a ground. Honestly, I still haven't figured out why they need a separate ground and neutral wired to the sub panel, but its code. I am not sure if running your own ground spikes at the garage would make it so you don't have to run a ground from the main panel.

 

[Ken45101]

I am not sure if running your own ground spikes at the garage would make it so you don't have to run a ground from the main panel.

Code is very specific about adding ground rods. You may NOT substitute a ground rod for a 4th conductor in a situation like this. That could be dangerous.

As has been mentioned, the conductor size is important not only to handle the required current, but also to minimize voltage loss under load. A couple of years ago, we added a barn for the RV. Lowe's didn't have the wire I wanted so I ended up with 12-3 w/ ground. I cannot take my compressor out there to top off the tires, the starting current drops the voltage too low for the compressor to start even though it normally runs on a 15 amp circuit.

Ken

 

[Groo]

Code is very specific about adding ground rods. You may NOT substitute a ground rod for a 4th conductor in a situation like this. That could be dangerous.

As has been mentioned, the conductor size is important not only to handle the required current, but also to minimize voltage loss under load. A couple of years ago, we added a barn for the RV. Lowe's didn't have the wire I wanted so I ended up with 12-3 w/ ground. I cannot take my compressor out there to top off the tires, the starting current drops the voltage too low for the compressor to start even though it normally runs on a 15 amp circuit.

Ken

I had a feeling that the 4th wire would be required by code, but I still can't understand why. it seams to me that the one neutral/ground wire and ground spikes should be more than enough. I'd think being close to a true earth ground would be even safer than a just a 4th wire. I guess I've never really studied this type of thing in depth, so maybe I am missing something.

The underlined is why I suggested 00 for the hots instead of 0. I doubt there will ever be a 120v unbalanced current load of greater than 20 amps in this type of application, so its only the 240v stuff you'd need to worry about voltage drop with. really, even 2 gauge Al for the hots would probably be plenty for a small welder and a few lights for quit a long run.

I know what you are saying about needing heavier gauge to start a motor. When my garage electrical was working, it would run my compressor easily, but when I plugged it into another outlet on the, about 1/4 the distance from the breaker (or closer), but downstream of some crappy wiring, it took plenty of trips down to the breakers box before I actually got it to run.

 

[Ken45101]

I had a feeling that the 4th wire would be required by code, but I still can't understand why. it seams to me that the one neutral/ground wire and ground spikes should be more than enough.

I'm not an electrical expert. Maybe someone with better knowledge can give a better answer.

The neutral wire is to carry the return current for the 110 hot lines. The ground wire is to provide a chassis ground so that you don't get shocked if something shorts out inside the case. They have different purposes.

Prior to the 1960's or 70's, three wire was all that was used, neutral and ground was shared. Then they changed the code, I assume for good reason.

During very dry weather, the dirt can pull away from a ground rod. I don't think outbuildings are supposed to have separate ground rods but that's getting into an area where I am not knowledgeable.

Ken

 

[Texasmark]

I still haven't figured out why they need a separate ground and neutral wired to the sub panel, but its code.

The reason is just what we were talking about and Ken said. If the 220 feed is unbalanced the unbalance current flows through the N. This gives you a voltage drop on the N wire and could present a shock hazard, especially if the consumption is a long way from the power source whereas the run would be long, wire resistance significant (considering), and hence enough voltage developed to present a shock hazard to ground (earth ground or to something connected to it). So they add a wire that normally carries no current and hence provides the panel ground reference at point of use.

Mark