Which models are the knock-offs?

[slowzuki]

Back in the day, long ago, Kioti produced tractors that were remarkable similar to the old B6000 type series Kubotas. Some stuff would interchange. People argue about this all the time but word is Kioti somehow got its hands on some worn out Kubota molds MANY YEARS AGO!

Currently the lawsuit is over marketing type tactics I believe.

If you were to look at product positioning,

The LK is about equivalent to some of the late 80's/ early 90's Kubota models in terms of copied styling. The L4400 that I think was discontinued last year was Kubota's last model with this old school styling.

The DK's have similar styling to the Grand L and Grand L10 series of a few years ago. They have many other features that distinguish them but some styling cues carry over.

The new style DK's obviously break clean away from Kubota and really help clean up the distinction. Kubota and Kioti have always had different design and features in their models, just now people can tell at a long distance who is who.

 

[Dargo]

rti, since the last thread was deleted, I'll again remind you that denial is still not a river in Africa. As I said then, I have no problems with the actual quality of the Kioti tractors, and hear that they are quite a good value, it's just that I think that it is rather weak to market your tractor on the coat tails of another tractor company. If you don't think that they began the name of their tractor with a big "K" and painted them orange, and styled them just like another existing and highly respected tractor company just to try to blur the line and gain market share, you truely are in denial.

It's a moot point. They made a decent quality knock off and gained market share. Now, hopefully, they will adapt their own identity and have their own style. As I mentioned before, I don't care for their marketing position because I have had designs and creations stolen by others who profited from them. Oh, that's right, you told me that it was my fault. I forgot.

My thought is that if you have a quality product to bring to market, it can stand on it's own merit and you don't have to ride in on the tail of an existing company. I haven't heard a single person say that Kioti's are junk or that they are going to drop out of business. It's just their marketing positioning and the fact that my local Kioti dealer, about 5 years ago - before he dropped the line, told me to my face that Kioti tractors were made on the same assembly line and was just the "economy" version of Kubota, that gives me a bad taste.

 

[rtimgray]

"since the last thread was deleted, I'll again remind you that denial is still not a river in Africa." You love that quote, don't you. You know, I didn't get it the first three times you said it, but maybe it will sink in if you say seven or eight more times. I will deny that Kioti is a "knock-off" of Kubota - they are a competing brand - no more, no less.

"styled them just like another existing and highly respected tractor company". Is the style merely the orange paint and a "K"? At least one poster tried to equate which models might be similar, but you continue to call them knock-offs without offering proof other than the "orange and K" connection.
Maybe I need to remind you "denial is still not a river in Africa"

"As I mentioned before, I don't care for their marketing position because I have had designs and creations stolen by others who profited from them. Oh, that's right, you told me that it was my fault. I forgot." It's too bad you had them stolen, but if it's not your fault for protecting your own inventions, I'm not sure whose fault it was. If you do not want to try to protect them, quit griping about having somebody else bogarting them.

I'm sorry that a Kioti dealer lied to you in the past - maybe once you invent a time machine and somebody steals it and markets it we can get together, go back in time, and fix that injustice too.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

While not a comparision between Kioti and Kubota, I think that Kioti may have moved on to copy New Holland's look/shape?

CK20 is very similar in style to the NH TC21 and Case/Farmall DX21.
CK30 is very similar in style to the NH TC29 and Case/Farmall DX29.

120 & 130 loaders are very similar in style to the NH LA series loaders

 

[rtimgray]

Thanks for the post comparing the Kioti/Kubota models. I had heard from a Kubota dealer that some parts would interchange (he had a Kioti 3054 in his shop that he was working on), but I didn't know if that was purposeful or coincidence. The line-by-line, model by model, etc . was more of the comparison I was looking for.

I'll agree that the styling is similar, but not exact. Look as may of the new vehicles today - don't the new Ford trucks look similar to some of the Dodge Rams (i.e. similar hoods and separated fenders). I can't hardly tell family sedans apart - they all look the same to me. However, I could take a closer look and probably tell them apart.

I'll say again - if you spend 30 minutes or less actually looking at a Kioti and Kubota and still can't tell the difference, you should visit a doctor.

Thanks again for the post though - at least you provided some answers and not just arguments.

 

[slowzuki]

Many people lied about the origins of Kioti. Before the days of the internet it was difficult to find any info on this.

Plenty of shady dealers sold tractors on Kubotas coat tails but this is long in the past now. Kioti is on it's own two legs now when marketing at least at all the dealers I've met.

It is even trickling into common knowledge about what they are all about. At the farm show a few weeks ago farmers where commenting about how the DK65s stacks against the econo NH cab models or the econo Masseys, not whether they should be looking at a M6800DTC.
Ken

 

[Dargo]

rti, how about I simply say that I respect your right to have your opinion, but I do not at all see how you can even say what you say with a straight face. You may just as well try to convince us that Iraq is currently a hot vacation spot for the family. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I haven't the time nor desire to debate a moot point with you.

 

[Cliff_Johns]

I think they are all copying off each other all the time. After all, they all look like tractors, don't they. When one company comes up with a good idea, the others would be foolish to ignore it. If it's not a patented improvement or copyrighted design element, then they are free to do so. It works this way in all products. I'm not sure, but I think NH came out with the curved loader arms first -- though that doesn't mean they "invented it," and now other companies are moving in that direction.

That's why in the 80's and 90's all the sedan cars started looking the same. Were they copying each others designs? Too some extent, yes. Are they knock-offs? No. Well, I don't think so at any rate.

I don't claim to know how Kioti came up with their original designs, but If you were designing a tractor from scratch, how would you go about it?

Cliff

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Cliff, CNH came out with the curved loader arms as an industry first, they beat Kioti by maybe 2 years. To date, only Kioti has a one piece copy of the CNH design. CNH also is the first in the compact tractors to steeply slope/curve their hood designs for better forward visibility. Kioti followed that design with their CK series tractors. From the drivers seat, the view forward on a CK series is remarkably the same as the CNH view.

John Deere currently is offering a curved loader design in their larger CUTs, but it is a 2 piece loader arm. The upper portion of the arm is curved, the lower portion is straight, and steeply raked forward. The JD design is a brand new design, yet it accomplishes the same objective, a better forward view. It should also be noted that JD has redesigned their hood shape which used to be long and flat and is now far more curvy.

It could be argued easily that CNH invented the curved loader.
It could be argued easily that Kioti copied the CNH innovation.
It could be argued easily that JD followed their own path to achive the same result.

As I look at the brands, Case/New Holland developed the new look. Kioti copied it. At least on the CK20, I think Kioti improved the copy and made a better tractor than the TC21/DX21. The CK30 also seems to have bested the TC29/DX29 in many respects so they not only copied, they improved. John Deere followed the theme of the curved arms & sloping hood, but instead of making a copy, they designed their own curved arm that is different looking yet functionally similar.

Now, does any of that mean these are "knock offs" or does it mean that the natural evolution of the brands is to follow a design leader? The new DK65 design does not strike me to be a copy of any brand, so they may be starting to evolve on their own.

I would suspect that given the factual history of the path Kioti took in their claims (at least their dealers claims) of being a Kubota product from Korea it is probable that they are not a true innovator, and it is probable that they are now copying Case-New Holland with the Kioti CK line. And it is probably true that they are a simply a copier of others. However, do not take away from them the fact that they have copied and improved the basic design in some ways (mainly by adding more features). Some could suggest that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

 

[rtimgray]

I agree with both Cliff and Bob. All of the manufacturers, whether they will admit it or not, do copy features to some degree or another - it is the natural evolution of the business. Does this copy/evolution make a tractor a knock-off? Obviously it does in the eyes of some folks - I just think it is the evolution.

If I were designing a tractor from scratch.... well, I'm not the inventor around here. I'd wait until someone else invented it, didn't patent it, then steal it or knock it off....then deny that I did it.