oliver1555
Gold Member
I don't think it's that I'm not aware of the pluses of ethanol in some applications. E85 won't work in anything I own and I don't want it forced on me by the stuffed shirts in D.C.
Why does everyone rant and rave about the EcoBoost?
- Thread starter Green Power
- Start date
- Views: 30678
I don't think it's that I'm not aware of the pluses of ethanol in some applications. E85 won't work in anything I own and I don't want it forced on me by the stuffed shirts in D.C.
Egon
Epic Contributor
:thumbsup:
Just trying to bring the history to some folks who may not be aware of the precedents.
There are also numerous ways to get alcohol other than corn.
KennyG
Elite Member
There is a lot of apples and oranges discussion going on here with resultant confusion. Having studied internal combustion engine design in engineering school almost 50 years ago (although I never worked in that particular area) I can tell you not much has changed in the basic theory. What has changed is material strength, manufacturing capability, electronic control, etc.
Low energy fuels like ethanol put out less heat and pressure per gallon. However, they have greater resistance to detonation which allows a higher compression ratio which increases thermal efficiency. Note that the Offenhauser engine referenced ran a 15:1 compression ratio back in the 30's. That engine could not have operated on gasoline. Similarly, some supercharged aircraft engines (supercharger necessary due to high altitudes) ran on alcohol. Note that engine had an integral head and block (the head was cast with block and was not removable) because of the high pressures. If not, the components would have been as heavy as a diesel engine.
Many people do not realized that "premium" gasoline actually has less energy per gallon than "regular". It would get poorer gas mileage except for the higher compression ratio it enables. In the past, engine control technology prevented a regular gas engine to from taking advantage of the premium fuel. Modern engines (especially turbo engines) have controls to get extra power from premium fuel while still operating on regular.
Alcohol mixtures present an even greater challenge for engine controls. Without being an expert, I'm skeptical whether a normally aspirated engine could have the range of controls to optimize use of E85 and still use E10. With a turbo engine it should be easier, but performance with E10 might be limited.
Ethanol makes sense in countries like Brazil where sugar cane grows very cheaply and the cars can be optimized to run on almost pure ethanol. In the US where we are focused on corn based ethanol (which is inherently more expensive than cane based ethanol) and most people will want flex fuel capability, I don't see how it makes sense.
rd_macgregor
Veteran Member
- Joined
- May 14, 2008
- Messages
- 1,874
- Location
- Prince Edward Island, Canada
- Tractor
- Kioti DK45SC, Kubota B2650
Even switching to ethanol (straight or mixed into gasoline), would still require import controls. Sugar cane ethanol is dramatically cheaper to produce than is corn ethanol. This is the reason that US government subsidies for ethanol have targeted domestic corn (or sugar beet) ethanol....otherwise, Brazilian cane sugar ethanol plants would have just sucked up all the money.
Copperhead
Veteran Member
That would be news to me. I have not ever heard of E85 even being proposed as a mandate for anyone. Not sure then why that would be an issue here. But if you know of a E85 mandate that is being proposed, please, don't hold out, provide a link.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Informative comments KennyG. Thanks.
Kinda curious what an Offy six cylinder with short stroke would have done.
Kinda curious what an Offy six cylinder with short stroke would have done.
Garandman
Elite Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2014
- Messages
- 3,131
- Location
- Mount Sunapee NH / Dorchester, MA
- Tractor
- Kubota L3200 HST
You noticed that too? "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
The 3.5L EcoBoost in our Transit runs fine on regular. Possibly if we were towing a lot, uphill, in summer, I might use mid-range or premium.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 58,091
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
American Made.... by ADM...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland
Antitrust Law Violations.
Price fixing.
Violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
Outstanding environmental record... :laughing:
And last but not least...
[h=3]Agricultural subsidies[/h] The company lobbies for agricultural subsidies and price supports including sugar and ethanol. According to a 1995 report by the libertarian think tank Cato Institute, "ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its bioethanol operation costs taxpayers $30."[SUP][28][/SUP]
jmc
Elite Member
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2003
- Messages
- 3,106
- Location
- SW Indiana
- Tractor
- Ford 1920 4x4 (traded in on Kubota). Case 480F TLB w/4 in 1 bucket, 4x4. Gehl CTL60 tracked loader, Kubota L4330 GST
American Made.... by ADM...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Daniels_Midland
Antitrust Law Violations.
Price fixing.
Violation of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
Outstanding environmental record... :laughing:
And last but not least...
[h=3]Agricultural subsidies[/h] The company lobbies for agricultural subsidies and price supports including sugar and ethanol. According to a 1995 report by the libertarian think tank Cato Institute, "ADM has cost the American economy billions of dollars since 1980 and has indirectly cost Americans tens of billions of dollars in higher prices and higher taxes over that same period. At least 43 percent of ADM's annual profits are from products heavily subsidized or protected by the American government. Moreover, every $1 of profits earned by ADM's corn sweetener operation costs consumers $10, and every $1 of profits earned by its bioethanol operation costs taxpayers $30."[SUP][28][/SUP]
Interesting. Heard a related discussion today to the effect that, if you want to let the "Free Market" settle things, you'd first better look at all the fingers in that "Free Market".
ColoradoBound
Bronze Member
How does all this talk about E85 have anything to do with the Ecoboost?
