wind power???

[jimpen]

OldMcDonald,

Thanks for taking a look. And not just calling it a stupid idea.

Well it was a thought. Even if it isn't stored at high pressure, I could see it working as a further backup to solar and wind. That would pretty much make someone almost completely independent from the grid in all circumstances.

 

[OldMcDonald]

jimpen, I am one of those folk who think no idea is stupid. I am very disappointed In the people at the Centre for Alternative Technology. It is a charity that is desperately short of money, has had some brilliant ideas and very good people in the past, but wastes so much on these sort of reports that will not happen, because they cannot. I have basically nil knowledge on hydrogen use, read a little, but do not understand it, so it is not part of my long-term planning. I intend to live forever, so have plans for when the lights go out.

 

[DarkBlack]

I do lot of work for oil and gas. They are ripping consumers off because they can. There is no competition to speak of. Producers of oil keep price high and refiners (unless they also own oil source) are on a verge of bankruptcy anytime cost of crude goes up because it is difficult to pass the expense on the customer. That is why the fuel doesn稚 decrease because the refiners are saving reserves for rainy days. I think.
Government goes into many things that will not happen without its involvement. Our country has significant wind and solar resources so why not use them. There are more people employed by alternative energy sector that in coal mines. Those are better jobs that in coal mine. No black lungs either.
If the cost of solar system stays where it is or even decreases I don't see why it will not work for anybody who has reasonable natural condition. And I mean anybody. We installed our system despite the hostility of our local utility. We did that because I wanted one the same way people buy large trucks to get groceries. It makes no sense and it still happens every day. I keep my old junker and have a system that brings about 200 a month in my pocket.
Once the alternative energy reaches significant level it will force utilities or government to act and build long distance transmission lines (DC lines) and develop viable energy storage systems. In fact I think we are already on tipping point. One of the IA utilities wants to build DC transmission line to east coast to sell excess generation from wind farms. IA produces more than 30% of energy from wind. Since East coast is two hours ahead of Midwest IA could send energy to the east when people in IA are still sleeping. And get energy back when the East is already sleeping.
Energy from Wind is already cheaper than from coal.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

Help me out, I can't find it in your link.
Where in that linked article does it talk about 'excess' wind power that you wrote about in your post?

 

[MossRoad]

Its called the Rock Island Clean Line project. You can google it. Quite controversial to property owners whose land it would cut across....

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=Rock+Island+Clean+Line+project

 

[Redneck in training]

Help me out, I can't find it in your link.
Where in that linked article does it talk about 'excess' wind power that you wrote about in your post?

The link shows cost of various sources of energy.
Google DC power from Midwest to East
Big Power Line Project Proposed To Transport Iowa Wind Energy - Farm Progress

 

[OldMcDonald]

Redneck, Forgive my inability, I cannot build a table or graph of 2013 and 2014 to date temperatures from your PWS. Please do not go to a lot of trouble, but can you readily tell me your highest and lowest daily temps for each year? Also did you have snowcover on the panels?

PV costs, are (I think) higher here than the US, but falling, and I am wondering whether PV might be preferable to a windmill despite our long hot summers. My collaborating near neighbour is like me in a river valley and although wind is fairly constant we get a lot of directional wind changes and swirling. He has done some testing, and actually has some PV knowledge and experience, with some small PV on which he is building up data.

You mentioned at #33 that large windmills will not be seen in hilly area. Here they are almost all along ridges, but only the highest ground (max elevation in the country is 2000m asl about 40 miles from me) receives snow.

 

[Axe Man]

The only reason Denmark exports power is because a vast majority of wind production in Denmark is achieved at night when the wind is blowing and it's not needed. Because of this Denmark exports ( dumps ) this excess to its neighbors at, or below cost because Norway and Sweden can shut down or ramp up it's hydro generated power quickly. Also because of it's government mandated emission requirements Denmark imports a lot of power from Norways hydro system at going rates and that's why fossil fuel generation is down in Denmark. This government interference and social engineering has resulted in the people of Denmark paying close to the highest electrical rates in the world.
In 2009 the government of Norway commissioned a study around developing a wind turbine strategy for their country and it was determined that wind was too expensive and too unreliable. Apart from these two failings, they were also concerned that the life expectancy of IWTs was between 10-15 years as opposed to 60-70 years for conventional power generation stations. They are now, however testing and developing a wind policy that will be tested and proven before being implemented and wide spread installations begin.

 

[Redneck in training]

:laughing:

Redneck, Forgive my inability, I cannot build a table or graph of 2013 and 2014 to date temperatures from your PWS. Please do not go to a lot of trouble, but can you readily tell me your highest and lowest daily temps for each year? Also did you have snowcover on the panels?

PV costs, are (I think) higher here than the US, but falling, and I am wondering whether PV might be preferable to a windmill despite our long hot summers. My collaborating near neighbour is like me in a river valley and although wind is fairly constant we get a lot of directional wind changes and swirling. He has done some testing, and actually has some PV knowledge and experience, with some small PV on which he is building up data.

You mentioned at #33 that large windmills will not be seen in hilly area. Here they are almost all along ridges, but only the highest ground (max elevation in the country is 2000m asl about 40 miles from me) receives snow.

OldMcDonald
Here is a link to Weather Station located about 20 km north of my place.
Indianola Town Square Weather | Personal Weather Station: KIAINDIA2 by Wunderground.com | Weather Underground
and this one is about 20 km south of my place
Osceola (I-35) Weather | Personal Weather Station: MROSI4 by Wunderground.com | Weather Underground
and this is my PWS installed in December 2013.
House in Medora Weather | Personal Weather Station: KIANEWVI3 by Wunderground.com | Weather Underground
Yes we get frequent snow in the winter. When sun comes up the panels warm up and the snow slides off few hour later. But I don't wait for it to happen and use a shop broom with extended handle and clean the panels first thing in the morning. In general polycrystalline panels have lower while monocrystalline have higher thermal coefficient. Since we have cold winter I decided on mono panels.
Wind makes no sense for small scale installation anymore. It is more expensive than solar, requires maintenance and the maintenance is 40m high. PV is straightforward. Mount the racking, install the panels, plug all connectors together, flip the switch and you are done. No crane or heavy lifting is necessary.
I will be more than happy to provide any advice regarding the installation.

 

[TomSeller]

Because of this Denmark exports ( dumps ) this excess to its neighbors at, or below cost because Norway and Sweden can shut down or ramp up it's hydro generated power quickly. .

That is exactly how I thought it worked, use the wind energy when it is there and ramp up and down the traditional sources. That means you still need as much traditional capacity but when not in use much of the water that would pass through a hydro dam can be stored behind the dam. Fuel powered plants can back off and save fuel, can they not? I never thought wind energy was intended to be stored.

 

[techman]

Fuel powered plants can back off and save fuel, can they not?

Coal plants and some large LG plants can take hours to spool up or down, so they do better with more constant loads. Smaller, newer NG turbine driven plants are better at quick response, but not too many of them yet in the US.

paul

 

[TomSeller]

Coal plants and some large LG plants can take hours to spool up or down, so they do better with more constant loads. Smaller, newer NG turbine driven plants are better at quick response, but not too many of them yet in the US.

paul

Makes sense, I would bet that modernizations of old plants and any new plants would be built to respond quicker to spooling up and down. So use the green sources when they are available and the traditional sources when they are not.

 

[OldMcDonald]

Redneck, Thanks again. I was trying not to bother you with a personal requirement for info. I was originally thinking I could make a table or graph of your temperatues, but could not. So, and apologies again, can you please give me a rough guide of your usual summer temps. My neighbour is currently working in London, and I am just trying to keep up to scratch on info that he will use and interpret for us both. He may well want to discuss installation of a bigger PV set up at some stage.

 

[OldMcDonald]

The only reason Denmark exports power is because a vast majority of wind production in Denmark is achieved at night when the wind is blowing and it's not needed.

But it is needed - somewhere. That is precisely the point with wind. It produces during the night when demand is low and the surplus can be used in many ways, one of which I have already pointed out to you. Additionally of course, the wind blows during the day and the power is perhaps then used quite locally.

I do not know what the requirements are in the US, or even whether it is a national thing, but in Britain it is necessary for the National Grid which is an HVAC network (see the links in ##64 and 65 if you want info on HVAC and HVDC) that must be kept at 50Hertz +/- 0.5Hz. To do this it has always needed what is known as spinning reserve power generating capacity (excess power stations) - long before renewables came on the scene. There is also another back-up source known as Short Term Operating Reserve (STOR) and these tend to be privately owned diesel generators (large ones) with contracts to supply power to the grid when required.

A further possibility in Britain is HVDC power from offshore wind in the North and West, and send this power to the heavily populated SE of England, in a similar way to the proposed Iowa HVDC line.

I repeat, windpower does work - and so does solar. Not all the time, but neither do ppower station generators. There was a considerable problem a couple of weeks back with a fire in a power station generator that had not been working since April. It will now be off for much longer.

 

[Country Geek]

Fascinating thread I just found it and read the whole thing.

I recently looked into PV solar with net metering because there was a push to get it installed in my community. The main reasons I didn't take the plunge were that 1. I'd need to replace my roof since its 15 years old and it makes no sense to put a 25 year solar system on a roof with less than 10 years of life left and 2. I decided to spend the upgrade money on a geothermal HVAC system instead.

But one thing that was apparent was how the legacy power company tries to look like they are cooperating with net metering while really not. Around here Duke Energy does not pay for the net metered power but you build up credits that go toward your power bills in months when you need excess. But here's the kicker: On May 31 of every year, all unused credits are wiped out. Just in time for the southern air conditioning season!

 

[DarkBlack]

The link shows cost of various sources of energy.
Google DC power from Midwest to East
Big Power Line Project Proposed To Transport Iowa Wind Energy - Farm Progress

Unless I'm reading it wrong, I still don't see, even in that link, where it talks about a large excess of wind power.
All I could find was theorized numbers based on if they were to spend billions $ on more windmills. That isn't what you meant, is it?

 

[OldMcDonald]

DarkBlack, I tend to agree with you that other posters have not directly answered your specific questions. Maybe if you approach it from a different angle - make a statement perhaps, or give your general views, you might have better luck. I suspect, perhaps wrongly, that like Axe Man, you are not convinced that renewables are all that they are cracked up to be. Again, I agree with you. Those selling the technology tell the same lies as all salespeople. That does not make the technology wrong, but it does annoy people who are not convinced of the need to replace fossil fuels, and I understand why it annoys them. Nobody likes liars, and we have seen a few in our lifetimes.

 

[KennyG]

Makes sense, I would bet that modernizations of old plants and any new plants would be built to respond quicker to spooling up and down. So use the green sources when they are available and the traditional sources when they are not.

The mix of renewables and traditional sources is the big problem the power industry is struggling with. Because we don't have a cost effective way to store power, renewables have to be used when they are available. Wind and solar typically have capacity factors of 20 to 30% which means that you need a lot of back up sources that may have to be shut down when the renewables are available. If those sources have large capital costs or can't be quickly ramped up or down it's a problem. Almost any plant can be designed to rapidly cycle but it does hurt the economics. The best example now is nuclear plants. They can be designed to cycle but, because of the high capital costs, need to operate most of the time. The lowest cost are simple cycle gas turbines but their efficiency is not so good. Most of the new gas plants are combined cycle which are very efficient but the cost is much higher and they are more complex to cycle rapidly.

Because of the wind/solar subsidies, they sometimes force the electricity wholesale cost to be negative, so other plants have to pay to get rid of their power, or else shut down. The other problem with renewables is that they require transmission lines just like other plants but only utilize them at an average of 20 or 30%. This cost goes into the distribution costs and not into the renewable energy cost.

The bottom line is that we are going to see more and more renewables but they are straining the traditional generation and distribution systems, which the renewables also need to survive. Something is going to have to be done to keep the base load reliable resources in the system or we will start seeing blackouts when the renewables are not available.

 

[Redneck in training]

If you spread in example wind generators over large area the energy production will be very predictable. Only problem is that there might not be enough load near by. To make our energy grid more afficient (not only because of wind but in general) we need long distance power transmission lines such DC. The DC concept is not new. There are DC lines in operation for over 50 years.

 

[Redneck in training]

Redneck, Thanks again. I was trying not to bother you with a personal requirement for info. I was originally thinking I could make a table or graph of your temperatues, but could not. So, and apologies again, can you please give me a rough guide of your usual summer temps. My neighbour is currently working in London, and I am just trying to keep up to scratch on info that he will use and interpret for us both. He may well want to discuss installation of a bigger PV set up at some stage.

I tried to attach the Excel file but TBN doesn't like it. You can get the data from the links I put in my post. Click the link. Click "gear" symbol on the top of the screen to convert Imperial units to SI. Scroll the screen down to see the charts, click on table Tab, click Download, copy the table and paste it to Word, save it as txt file. Open it in Excel and check the "coma" delimited box when asked. Click Finish. Indianola and Osceola have data years back, my WS was installed in December 2013 so it has only 8 month of data o the web.

 

[Jim Nelson]

DarkBlack, I tend to agree with you that other posters have not directly answered your specific questions. Maybe if you approach it from a different angle - make a statement perhaps, or give your general views, you might have better luck. I suspect, perhaps wrongly, that like Axe Man, you are not convinced that renewables are all that they are cracked up to be. Again, I agree with you. Those selling the technology tell the same lies as all salespeople. That does not make the technology wrong, but it does annoy people who are not convinced of the need to replace fossil fuels, and I understand why it annoys them. Nobody likes liars, and we have seen a few in our lifetimes.

This is very true at least for me. In the U.S.A. the biggest proponent of this is also the biggest phony who has used this to add to his fortune and removed any credibility from that side of the argument. The greenies, as they are called, need better spokes people and more honesty.Blaming people and their lifestyles will not sell an idea especially when we can look at recent history and see the improvement in places like California where if anything people should be given credit for cleaning up as well as they have .
As I remember in the history of electricity in the U.S. Edison had some competition from a man named Tesla,I believe, who was pushing for d.c. way back then so it's not an entirely new idea.