wind power???

   / wind power??? #81  
As I remember in the history of electricity in the U.S. Edison had some competition from a man named Tesla,I believe, who was pushing for d.c. way back then so it's not an entirely new idea
.

Actually Edison was the one pushing for DC distribution in the local area, and Tesla and his financial backer Westinghouse who was a proponent of AC generation and distribution at higher voltages to reduce ohmic losses and then using transformers (which you can actually use on AC) to reduce these higher distribution voltages to a useable voltage for homes and business. Tesla and Westinghouse of course won that argument. Now DC long distance high voltage transmission is another thing entirely than local distribution for a few miles.
 
   / wind power??? #82  
Redneck, I rarely have the need to say thank you so often to anybody* but do so again for #79. The winter temperatures there are much colder than here, but the summer maximums (2013 and 4) are very similar, and you have higher night-time mins.

"Totally off topic, and apologies to anyone objecting. I needed to go into town, 15miles. We are preparing for a trip back to the UK for our grand-daughter's christening. My 21 yo car failed to start and the guess is water in the cylinders - cannot move the engine and no water, checked OK last week. I decided to take the tractor in and see what help I could get, and not sure where to start. My Portuguese is minimal.

3 miles along the road I saw one of the vehicles belonging to the place I bought it from in January 2003, more than 11 years ago. The owner's son was in it. The upshot is, they will pick up my car, give me a courtesy vehicle, and if they have problems fixing my car before I have to go, I can take it to Lisbon and park it there until I come back. I was overwhelmed. I do believe I thanked them more than I have you in the last few days. This is typical Portuguese helpfulness.
 
   / wind power??? #83  
.

Actually Edison was the one pushing for DC distribution in the local area, and Tesla and his financial backer Westinghouse who was a proponent of AC generation and distribution at higher voltages to reduce ohmic losses and then using transformers (which you can actually use on AC) to reduce these higher distribution voltages to a useable voltage for homes and business. Tesla and Westinghouse of course won that argument. Now DC long distance high voltage transmission is another thing entirely than local distribution for a few miles.
Thanks for the correction,I remembered a dispute an assumed Edison had won because of his notoriety.Once more I'm reminded of what "assume" stands for.
 
   / wind power??? #84  
Thanks for the correction,I remembered a dispute an assumed Edison had won because of his notoriety.Once more I'm reminded of what "assume" stands for.

That's ok, I made the same mistake not long ago.
 
   / wind power??? #85  
Thanks for the correction,I remembered a dispute an assumed Edison had won because of his notoriety.Once more I'm reminded of what "assume" stands for.

I know it is hard to keep track of the arguments and wheeler-dealing that went on back then. If you will remember Edison electrocuted several animals including an elephant in public demonstrations to "prove" how dangerous AC power was to discredit Tesla. And some people called Tesla crazy.. Perhaps he was, a "crazy genius", he was somewhat weird, but brilliant at the same time. But the lying and alliances and the money trail back then is just the same as it is today...

Well heck today, for instance we are still having "voltage wars" Just follow all the 120 volt vs 240 welder threads, and all the hurt feeling over that!:laughing:
 
   / wind power??? #87  
I have been one of the offenders of leading this thread off topic, so I thought I should make amends. I decided to this by researching a little about Denmark since it has been referred to on a couple of occasions.

I knew from UK information that Denmark was the world leader in offshore wind turbines. It has supplied 90% of offshore capacity according to its government. What has to be remembered by those in the USA (the vast majority of TBNers) is that most states in the US are bigger than most countries in Europe. As a consequence it is not unusual for these countries to collaborate in energy production and distribution. That collaboration obviously means imports and exports of energy. I am sure it happens across state boundaries in the US. There is an enormous offshore scheme in development to provide power for Denmark, Sweden and Germany.

Whilst a world leader in wind power, Denmark is still only at 28% power generation from wind (Portugal is at 50%) so is a long way from being able to de-fossilise its power generation. It does not expect to be fully fossil free until 2050. Denmark does not use nuclear power generation.
 
   / wind power??? #88  
The idea that Portugal gets 50% of its electric power from wind didn't seem possible to me. Maybe 50% of total potential generating capacity? A Goggle search brought up this article which says 27% from wind for the first quarter of 2013. I'd be surprised, if on a yearly basis, wind power contributed over 10% of total production. Of course it depends on how the contribution is calculated.

Yale Environment 360: Renewable Energy Generated 70 % Of Portugal
 
   / wind power??? #89  
horsepuller, I exaggerated slightly, it was only 49.6%; hydro 13.9% and the otherrenewables combined (mainly solar) 9.6% for the calendar year 2013. The remainder was made up of coal 8.2% Fossil fuel cogeneration 11.8% and other sources (probably imported from Spain, including nuclear) made up the balance of 6.9%. These figures are taken from an electricity acount I paid yesterday. The pie chart had a note that these were "electricity billed was produced from the following sources of energy".

Why do you make those 50% and 10% guesses? You cannot know how the energy was produced. What is more, you do not know the amount the country uses compared to say a state like New York in your country. I accept the info from my supplier, EDP a global company that has put a lot of money into wind power, and I have seen many new windmills constructed in my immediate area on an ongoing basis for several years. Come and have a look at them sometime, and spend some US dollars in Portugal. We need the inflow of money.
 
   / wind power??? #90  
...

The bottom line is that we are going to see more and more renewables but they are straining the traditional generation and distribution systems, which the renewables also need to survive. Something is going to have to be done to keep the base load reliable resources in the system or we will start seeing blackouts when the renewables are not available.

The Wall Street Journal had a report a few months ago about Germany and energy. The Germans are going full throttle into Green Energy and they are really paying for it. There power costs at around 35 cents a KWH! :shocked: This is due to the push to solar and wind while turning off Nukes. Ironically, they are having to burn more coal to supply power lost from Nuke production since solar and wind cannot meet the power demand. The bigger problem they have is the grid. Who is gong to pay for expanding and maintaining the power grid? Obviously, the consumer of power pays for the grid. The problem is that the cost of power is getting so high, that the industrial users are thinking about generating their own power on site because it would be cheaper. These companies buy huge amounts of power and thus pay for a good proportion of the grid. If companies generate their own power, they will NOT be buying power from the grid, and thus, not paying to maintain or expand the grid. There was another story this week about power costs in Germany causing companies to minimize or stop factory expansions in Germany. In some cases, the companies are moving jobs to the US due to much cheaper power costs.

Frankly, I think the Germans are shooting themselves in the head power wise. The EU is regulating the power needs of vacuum cleaners, hot water kettles and hair dryers which is simply absurd. It is only a matter of time before they prohibit ovens from going over a specified heat. :rolleyes:

Later,
Dan
 
   / wind power??? #91  
I haven't read through all nine pages but if your utity doesn't offer a workable "net metering" rate. Your wind turbine and solar isn't going to pay by using a battery bank.
Our government brags much about green energy but the utility does not allow any more FIT or net metering connections , at least in my area.
Best I can do is shave daytime peak rates to zero with a 5KW solar system and grid tie invertor to offset the 4-5KW daytime load of the AC system and pool pump etc.
A wind turbine connected to the same grid tie would shave off some evening, night, morning and winter demand.
There are times however in spring and fall the utility would be getting 2-4KW of free power.
I have thought of a 48VDC 1KW solar system to power a 1KW 48V DC electric heating element. Place din an electric "per-heater" prior to my regular electric water heater. For 6-8 months of the year the ore heater should supply 120-140F water into the main water heater.
A 22 foot dia turbine in 23mph wind will make shaft HP of approx 14KW.
Electricity Generation Using Small Wind Turbines at Your Home or Farm
 
   / wind power??? #92  
Dmccarty hit the nail on the head.

It's about government empires built by burocrates who crave power and security. Like the safety nazis they wrap them selves of the banner saying" it's good for the environment , the plant, your county , you and your children. How dare you question our green energy plan.
As indicated beware of installed capacity vs actual production.
The green weenies fail to mention the fossil capacity costs to be on standby.
Then again liberal arts majors may mean well and want to have nice feelings. However they have no grasp of the laws of physics.
 
   / wind power??? #93  
Germany deciding to stop nuclear power was a knee jerk reaction Fukushima (sp?) and at the time had wide public support. I have no figures, but a lot of people on this side of the Atlantic, not just the EU, are against nuclear power. Chernobyl, problems in Britain's nuclear plants, and scares in other countries have made people aware of the consequences of nuclear accidents.

I do not have the details to hand of the current situation, and you probably do not want them, but farms in England still had restrictions on their sheep in 2012 and in Norway last year due to the Chernobyl explosion in 1986. That was a long time ago - several generations of sheep.

Having said that, Dmmcarty could well be right about the EU limiting the heat of ovens, nothing surprises me about what they legislate for - except huge numbers of EU households do not have electric ovens because they are not connected to electricity. It is not traditional to roast things anyway, and some that are connected do not have ovens. We have 3-phase power here, and yet there was no oven in the otherwise very modernised house when we bought in 2003.
 
   / wind power??? #95  
Electric stoves seem to appear mostly in North America where power used to be cheap.

Yes, the UK and Europe use gas (natural gas) for the stoves and in outlying areas a lot of people had wood fired/coal fired ranges in the kitchens.
 
   / wind power??? #96  
Sorry Jim, but many places in the UK do not have gas, and bottled is not too popular, so electric is the choice for those who do not want solid fuel. No oven in the house is the norm here. A separate outside domed bread oven (often in its own built on room, or as in my house a combined bread oven/smoke room) is fairly common, but as I already posted, roasting food does not fit many cultures. Roast suckling pig is popular in parts of Portugal for special occasions, and, given the size is bigger than most domestic ovens, they use the bread ovens for that. It must be a very skilled job getting the temperature right in those things.
 
   / wind power??? #97  
The rural area of Germany we lived in didn't have natural gas and propane use was fairly limited too. Electric ovens and cooktops were the norm in that area.

I think our friends did more meat grilling over a wood fire than roasting in the oven. They loved to grill. Small "grill houses" with a roofed and weather sheltered grilling attached area like a covered patio were not uncommon.

Around the early 2000's they put in a line of wind turbines not far away. Last year another line of turbines were installed on the hilltops near the village we lived in. I haven't been back for a visit since those recent turbines were built but my friend says they are pretty close. We used to go walking over those hills from Niederhambach to Leisel and there was good beer at each end. :D
 
   / wind power??? #98  
This another take on the German energy sector issue. The coal-nuclear situation is discussed earlier in the article.

Germany: Rising Renewables, and Falling Electricity Prices | Climate Denial Crock of the Week

It’s hardly a surprise for the threatened coal industry to claim “many large industrial corporations are migrating out of [Germany].” But for The Economist to make a similar claim, also without a single example, is unusual: Germany’s top energy economist sees no sign of industrial flight, nor has a request for examples elicited any. Yet the canard persists. Perhaps such confusion is due to U.S. expansion of gas-intensive chemical giants like BASF, which naturally pivot toward fourfold-cheaper U.S. natural gas because it’s both a fuel and a feedstock; BASF in Germany also makes 70 percent of its electricity internally from natural gas. But as Craig Morris of Renewables International notes, chemical firms’ U.S. expansions are driven by U.S. gas prices, not German electricity prices. Giant German firms enjoy Germany’s low and falling wholesale electricity prices, getting the benefit of renewables’ near-zero operating cost but exempted from paying for them, as I’ll describe below.

The truth about German industrial electricity prices (such as the wholesale spot and futures market quotations) is easily determined from official statistics, which are far more transparent and thorough than America’s. Even as GE’s Chairman griped that a German steel mill pays four times the typical U.S. industrial power price (perhaps reflecting a confusion between U.S. and Euro cents), the average German wholesale price for June 2013—essentially the price such big industries pay—fell to a record low of 2.8 Euro cents or 3.7 U.S. cents per kWh, well below his 5-cent U.S. benchmark. To be sure, the average retail kWh bought by the entire German industrial sector, much of it small and midsized, cost 8.6 U.S. cents for energy plus 8.0 for taxes, vs. 6.5 cents in the largely tax-free U.S., so smaller firms’ total tariff, typical in Europe, is about twice the U.S. level. But renewables don’t account for that gap; German industry is thriving anyhow because it’s efficient; and U.S. electricity prices rose 4.8 during 2007–12 and 44 percent during 1995–2012—faster than the German increases of 3.7 and 16 percent.

Thus Germany is building the renewable foundation for declining long-term electricity prices. Sure enough, German wholesale power prices have fallen about 30 percent in the past two years to near eight-year lows, putting utilities that underinvested in renewables under severe profit pressure. This success in using modern renewables to reduce and stabilize electric generating costs is sometimes misdescribed as a failure because it creates losers—those who bet against it—as well as the winners who bet on its success.
 
   / wind power??? #99  
dmccarty, Thought you might be interested in a follow up to your post #90. As of today the EU bans the manufacture and import of vacs over 1600W. That has led to a huge upsurge in sales of more powerful vacs in the last few weeks - some retailers reporting over 40% increase. Apparently there is no move yet on kettles and hairdryers. The whole idea (according to those who thought it up) is that smaller machines will use less power.

There may be hope though. A new German political party of the Euro-sceptic kind won seats in yesterday's elections in the State of Saxony with about 10% of the vote. Euro-sceptic parties also did well in EU elections in May. I am pleased to say I voted against Britain joining the mess 40 years ago - the only chance we ever had to stay out.
 

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