Yet Another Well Pump Issue

[QueBota]

I guess it isn't really a pump issue but the black "ABS?" line from the well to the pressure tank.

Pardon me while I ramble a bit.

Over the course of the past several months I have noticed the well pump cycling during the night. Our bedroom is directly above the utility room downstairs and it is very noticeable when the pump clicks on and off. I attributed it to a leaky facucet and toilet that I had been slow to repair. I repaired both of those items and the problem persisted. I thought it might have been the anti-drainback valve that was failing but there doesn't appear to be one on the inlet side of the pressure tank. We have the old, large, green, non-bladder pressure tank. Appears to be original to the house, circa 1979. The ABS? pipe enters the utility room through the bottom of the foundation just above the slab. Looks like some odd type of adapter that allows the ABS? pipe to be clamped (hose clamp) directly to the fitting(s) that eventually enter the bottom of the pressure tank at the floor. None of this stuff looks like it has ever been touched.

Discoverd what I think is the major source of the problems yesterday afternoon. We have finally had some rain after a very dry winter/spring. I think the rain, about 4" in about a day, saturated the ground enough to make the spot apparent where the ABS? water supply pipe is leaking between the well cap and the pressure tank. The ground is quite wet/saturated in an area that covers about 3 feet wide by about 8 feet long. There is a natural depression in the "lawn" at this point, which would account for the poolilng of the water.

I have never dealt with a specific situation like this but am pretty handy and do all most all of my repair work.

What is the recommend course of action at this point. I would imagine I have to start carefully digging and try to find the source of the leak. This process is complicated by the fact the my electical service runs in very close proximity to what I image the path the the water supply line to be. I have placed a call to Miss Utility, they indicated their response time could be anywhere from 1 May to 16 May.

To complicate things the area that is being saturated holds three large sweet gum trees that could do major damage to the house if the leaned/fell that way. Currently I have the well pump shut off, only turning it on when absolutely necessary to make my wife and daughters happy. Leak doesn't appear to be a major one at this point. The well pump will cycle about every 12 minutes which equals about 6 gallons of water if my math is correct.

Any advice will be appreciated, I can try to post some pics/drawings when I get off of work this afternoon. Going to go home and begin carefully excavating in search of the water line.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dodge man]

It seems if you had some sort of drainback valve, that would help the problem on a temporary basis. Think about it, if you fill the well tank and have some sort of one way valve, your leak won't matter except when the well is pumping.

 

[chopped]

I agree. i have one of these just before the tank.
Shop AMERICAN VALVE 1" Brass Spring Loaded Check Valve at Lowes.com

 

[QueBota]

Thanks guys, definitely need a short term fix and a more permanent fix.

Pardon me while I ramble some more.

The check valve would work, I am a little leary about near surface contaminents entering the water supply. I would have assumed an anti-drainback valve before the pressure tank and another valve at the bottom of the well on or near the pump. As best as I can tell by looking at this beast, there is no anti-drainback valve at the bottom of the pressue tank, not even a shutoff valve, just a nipple and what looks like a street el with a nipple or slip fit to accomodate the attachment of the incoming black ABS? pipe with what looks like a standard hose clamp. It is located in a corner with minimum access, I can imagine this stuff would be a bear to get apart. Also, whoever did the install left about 3" of the ABS? extending from the wall into the utility room, don't want to foul that up. Never understand why people do that in plumbing or wiring, I always leave a little extra for future repairs.

Having never worked with the ABS? material I am not sure what is the best way to go about repairing/replacing the damaged section/sections. For all I know they could have joined multiple pieces together and it is leaking at a splice. Every job I tear into a this place is worse than the one before. Two hours jobs end up becoming weekend projects.

Is it common for this type of piping to develop leaks? It has been in the ground since 1979. I vaguely remember hearing "horror stories" about some type of water supply pipe failing during that time period.

If I have to tear into the plumbing at the pressue tank in the house I believe I will just replace the old green monster (air charged with a "disk" that seperates liquid and water) with a modern bladder type tank. My neighbor did this not to long ago (needed new well pump). Seems like the new tanks are much smaller and not as susceptible to becoming air logged. At this point I have to recharge my tank about once a year.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[jonyyuma]

It sounds like your Abs, is probably at its service limit, Might be brittle and hard to work with for repairs?

 

[QueBota]

I found quite a few "scraps" in the woods surrounding the house when we first moved in and I was cleaning up. Going to see if I can locate them and see what I have. I know I didn't get rid of rid of them, my packrat nature wouldn't allow it, it's just a question of remembering where I put them.

Going to start gently excavating the dry area with my son just below where the leak appears to be. Hopefully we can locate the pipe and work our way towards the leak, making sure to avoid the electric service.

Miss Utility sure has changed. I spent 1/2 hour on the phone with them this AM and they couldn't enter my simple request in the work order "Mark electric service from meter to transformer at front corner of property". They wantted direction, distance and a whole bunch of information that would just confuse the guy/gay that shows up. I am going to leave a sign up for whoever shows up explaining what I want marked. Hopefully they will have enough sense to figure it out. Maybe I will get lucky and be there when they show up, in my experience they are usually nice folks to deal with.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[dodge man]

In our area, its called JULIE, and they have to locate within 24 hours. I wouldn't use any old pipe that was laying around for the repair. Plastic tends to degrade when exposed for a long period of time.

 

[Looking4new]

I think you ought to run a new line and put a footvalve in the well as well as a check valve at the tank. With the new line you can leave as much excess as you want and just re-route your inside plumbing to suit.

 

[QueBota]

In our area, its called JULIE, and they have to locate within 24 hours. I wouldn't use any old pipe that was laying around for the repair. Plastic tends to degrade when exposed for a long period of time.

Thanks for the tip, didn't plan on using it for a repair piece, I'm sure it is worse than what is in the ground. I just wanted to check the size and see what markings may be on it. The genius that installed this line left about 2 inches protruding from the wall, access almost impossible, I am about 6' 2"/250 lb, very similar to the stub that was left under my kitchen sink. If the piece sticking through the wall takes a crap this is going to turn into a major project.

In MD, PA and DE Miss Utility only responds within 24 if contractors/crew is onsight and ready to work or if there is an immediate danger to human life. Homeowners can wait up to two weeks.

Just have to dig carefully and watch out for the electric lines, would like to at least put a patch/repair section on this as soon as I can.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[QueBota]

I think you ought to run a new line and put a footvalve in the well as well as a check valve at the tank. With the new line you can leave as much excess as you want and just re-route your inside plumbing to suit.

Good advice, long term it would make sense to replace the entire line. Unfortunately all of the water line, as far as I can tell, runs below the electric service lines, based on what I remember from the last time I had it marked. This will involve hand digging up approx. 125' of water line that will be at least 2' deep. Not as young as I used to be, plus I have a lot of other things going right now. Sure can't afford to pay someone to do the job. Perhaps I will head up to the local Latino work site and see if I can get a few workers for the day. The will give you and honest 10 hours for between $80 and $100.

Not sure about a foot valve (what is that) but will definitely put in a check valve at the tank when I replace the old green monster with a newer bladder style tank. I will definitely add valves were appropriate and give myself some room to work.

My well pump is approx. 225' down and has been in service since 1989. The original was replaced in 1989 due to a lighting strike. We have been here since 2002.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[TheGoose]

Is yours a submersible pump or jet pump? It would make a big difference whether or not you can use a check valve at the tank.

The plastic is probably not ABS but PVC. ABS, to my knowledge, is not pressure rated. Normally used for DWV (drain, waste, vent) lines, but not pressure.

Also there is the possibility that your check valve or footvalve is leaking back in the well, which is causing your pump to cycle. I'm not sure why the rain would have showed where the leak is. The leak should have been really visible if it was dry.

 

[QueBota]

UPDATE:

Excavated near the leak site, 2x2x2 foot deep hole, turned on the pump, eventually water made its way to the inital hole that we dug. Appears the pipe is approx. 2 to 3 feet to the side of the inital hole. Pretty close guess on my part. Water is visible running into the new hole at a depth of approx. 2 feet, which makes sense, the code for frost line around here is 2 feet. Still haven't been able to put my hands on the water line, but I feel that I am close.

There is a maze of sweet gum roots that we have chopped and hacked our way through, tough sledding, hard to get a good swing at the roots and hard to see what is what. I have used the hose to try to rinse things off, good and bad, rinses things off but fills the hole with water. Hesitant to use the chainsaw, the bar and chain will be trash within seconds of cutting out the roots. Looks like the only solution at this point is to did a bigger hole. It appears that the water line is buried under and obscured by roots at this time.

I am done for tonight, hard work. Will start enlarging the hole after work tomorrow.
The leak appears to be relatively minor, all things considered. We should be able to get by turning on the pump as needed for the next day or two. We have pool water to flush and 5 gallon jugs for cooking/washing/ etc.

Thanks for all the help, will update tomorrow.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[chkntrktr]

The black pipe in use in the 60's and 70's does get leaks in it, I dug up a line I had several times and cut it in two where the leak was, used a plastic nipple and hose clamps; however, like The Goose said it was visible where the leak was. With a dry spring you would already have had a wet spot. Last year my pump was cycling a lot and it was caused by two wires rubbing together and shorting. Seems like the thing they put in the wells to keep the pump from tourqing (?) (can't remember the name) broke, let the pump move some and the wires rubbed together until they wore through. Also, another time had a leak in the line in the well itself. It cycled a lot then also.

OK, when i posted I saw you had already found your problem. Good luck, sounds like a real job.

 

[QueBota]

Is yours a submersible pump or jet pump? It would make a big difference whether or not you can use a check valve at the tank.

The plastic is probably not ABS but PVC. ABS, to my knowledge, is not pressure rated. Normally used for DWV (drain, waste, vent) lines, but not pressure.

Also there is the possibility that your check valve or footvalve is leaking back in the well, which is causing your pump to cycle. I'm not sure why the rain would have showed where the leak is. The leak should have been really visible if it was dry.

The ground was soo dry that is was absorbing the water for the most part. When we received the 4" of rain in less than 24 hours it saturated ground and allowed the leak to show. It has been very very dry around here since last fall. It seems the leak was just small enough to be absorbed by the soil and plants without creating a visible wet spot on the surface, at least that's my theory.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[turnkey4099]

Digging at the wet spot is no gaurantee you will find the leak, wter from one can suface a long way from the leak location. Try getting long, thin rod, insert alongthe pipe run and apply ear to tother end, you _may_ be able to hear the hiss when near the leak location.

Neer did understand why people put check valves at the pressure tank end. It accomplishes nothing unless there is a leak - then it is only a work-around solution to avoid repairing the leak. Bottom line it does not cure the problem. Leak is still there (and will get worse) every time the pump runs.

Hiring a couple day laborers to dig the area near and under the power lines would then allow you to rent a ditch witch for the remainder of the run.

I agree with others. Replace the line.

Harry K

 

[QueBota]

Agreed, the line will be replaced.

I'm sure after I repair the leaking section another leak will develop within a few months.

The line has been in service since 1979. Still haven't put my hands on the line yet, but have to be close. Looking at the mass of sweet gum roots that the line passes thru I'm amazed that the line isn't broken in multiple places, there are roots larger than my calves.

Boss is going to let me head home early today, going to do some more digging. Will feel relieved once I locate the water line. Going to splice/patch for now.

Anyone have an idea how deep on the well casing the water line that feeds the pressure tank is located. I have a PVC pipe which protudes above the ground about 8 to 10 inches at the location of the well. I replaced the cap a few years ago with an updated style.

If I can find the location where the water line connects with the feed line from the well I may run an above ground line to feed the pressure tank for the warmer months while I try to figure out the best route to run the new line (far away from the electrical service).

If I can't dig enough to locate the line this afternoon it's off to the local Home Depot insearch of Latino laborers ( no offense intended ). I have used them in the past, if you get some good guys it is a win win situation for all parties involved, they appreciate the work and give an honest effort.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[turnkey4099]

Agreed, the line will be replaced.

I'm sure after I repair the leaking section another leak will develop within a few months.

The line has been in service since 1979. Still haven't put my hands on the line yet, but have to be close. Looking at the mass of sweet gum roots that the line passes thru I'm amazed that the line isn't broken in multiple places, there are roots larger than my calves.

Boss is going to let me head home early today, going to do some more digging. Will feel relieved once I locate the water line. Going to splice/patch for now.

Anyone have an idea how deep on the well casing the water line that feeds the pressure tank is located. I have a PVC pipe which protudes above the ground about 8 to 10 inches at the location of the well. I replaced the cap a few years ago with an updated style.

If I can find the location where the water line connects with the feed line from the well I may run an above ground line to feed the pressure tank for the warmer months while I try to figure out the best route to run the new line (far away from the electrical service).

If I can't dig enough to locate the line this afternoon it's off to the local Home Depot insearch of Latino laborers ( no offense intended ). I have used them in the past, if you get some good guys it is a win win situation for all parties involved, they appreciate the work and give an honest effort.

Thanks,
Dave

The outlet from the well casing will...ummm should be close to the same depth as your pipe.

Harry K

 

[chopped]

Actually it does accomplish something, It works in conjunction with the 'foot' valve in the pump end.Its been standard practice here for 45 years that I know of.But yes its just a quick fix in this case.It doesnt sound like he has a pin hole leak at this point..Hopefully its an easy splice fix when its located.

 

[QueBota]

The outlet from the well casing will...ummm should be close to the same depth as your pipe.

Harry K

Thanks, that's what I was thinking, I also thought it might be a bit deeper, wouldn't be much trouble to put it down at bit more when installing the casing (PVC in this case). Haven't messed around with this type of well setup before, hesitant to dig around the well casing at this point.

Good news, I found the pipe and the leak. It was about two feet away from my initial 2x2x2 foot deep test hole. Strange looking leak, not a hole or a split put a series of small holes, almost looks like the tree roots levered the pipe into splitting open. The pipe runs through a maze of tree roots that you would have to see to believe. We had to do some major hatchet work just to get to the point of viewing the pipe. The leak is visible just before it disappears into a hole in the gnarliest bunch of sweet gum roots you could ever imagine. The top of the pipe is accessible but the bottom of the pipe rests on a very large sweet gum root. Once I get this cleaned up as much as possible it is going to require some chainsaw work, going to have to find my oldest bar and chain.

The leak is not very large, I can stop most of it by placing my thumb across the leak, it tends to trend across the pipe. There is a large root above the leak. I wedged a washcloth between the pipe and the root for now, reduced the leak by about 50%, good enough for tonight.

Also found a length of the pipe that I believe is used in the water supply. When my son comes in I will have him read the info from the pipe, I can read it. Will take pics when I come home tomorrow. The pipe is black and appears to be 1" pipe, it is barely flexible.

I think my pressure tank was ready for a recharge just before this happened. I am only leaking about 3 or 4 gallons between 60 psi and 40 psi. Not sure if that is a good thing at this time.

Thanks for the help, hope to update with pics tomorrow afternoon/evening.

Dave

 

[Carl_NH]

I would imagine you have 160PSI black polyethene pipe - used with barbed fittings at the tank and pump well (Pitless adapter). You might have 100PSI version but that is thinner, like .060" wall thickness versus the 160 PSI pipe has almost .100 wall thickness. You should see the imprinted label on the pipe. One test, 100PSI pipe 1' long you can bend in half easily, 160PSI pipe 1' long to bend in half by hand is not easy.

I installed pumps in PA area in the 70s and we used poly pipe exclusively black 160PSI pipe and also blue poly that was lighter, more flexible rated at 200PSI and tough.

I would dig 2' either direction and replace the pipe for at least 4-5' beyond the area of the leak just ot make sure there are no other holes/roots in the line. Also use brass 1" barbed connectors and good SST clamps - 2 per connection and heat the pipe with a propane torch for 20 seconds around the pipe to make it easier to slide on. A bit of vaseline doesnt hurt either.

I would leave this uncovered for a week or two to ensure you are leak free then take pictures of the hole and well cap for future reference. Ultimately I would replace the entire line, so fix it temporarly then have some day labor in to dig it up completely. A 125' run in decent soil (no 10" rocks or roots) is a good day for a hard worker, and if roots and rocks maybe 3 days at most.

Carl