To rebuild or not to rebuild this old engine?

[firefighter9208]

I don't know if this engine has cam bearings or not, but do know if you have a block vatted you have to replace the cam bearings because it ruins them. They don't charge but a few dollars for installation at the machine shop, because they have to do this on all blocks that are vatted. At least that's the way it's been on every engine I've ever built.

Chris

 

[TYMinColton]

A couple of pics of the main and rod bearings. I don't have any idea who manufactured these (part number FM183X CP QT 010?), and didn't get any hits on the web, but it does look as though both the main and rod bearings are 0.01 "Under/over-sized". Can anyone confirm this?

Backside of front main bearing shell:

Inner surfaces of both bearing shells:

Backside of Rod bearing shell:

 

[AntrimMan]

Fm = federal mogul
010 US = .010 Under size from standard.
The overlay looks good to me. If they are all this good I would reuse them, just as long as you haven't mixed them up and the crank is good.

All the Best

 

[john_bud]

Good to go. Dip them in oil and replace.

jb

 

[Soundguy]

Yep.. doesn't look like the first coat is worn thru yet.

soundguy

 

[RobJ]

Yeah not bad. Try to keep them matched up if you can, top, bottom, etc. If they get mixed up don't fret. Each shell half is exactly the same. They just grab 2 and put them in a new box. Those look to have little wear.

 

[TYMinColton]

Actually I kept each pair of shells separated and organized. I can easily identify the top vs bottom shell for reassembly. To answer another question, the journals also look as good or better than the bearings, so I think I'm just going to give everything the once over, soak everything in oil, insert new seals, and reassemble. In contrast, the Rod bearings do show a little more wear than the main set, so it seems like a good investment to just pick up a new set.
Thanks!
Pete

 

[Soundguy]

Remember to use assembly lube.. I agree.. do the rods if they show wear.. the others look practically new though..

soundguy

 

[Egon]

The pictures of the rod shells seem to bother me for some reason. Perhaps a picture with better light would show things better.

From memories of long ago the wear pattern and striations on the pictured rod shells bother me. Also the fact that they are all ready undersized indicates that some wear has occurred in the past. However, my knowledge is not sufficient to say weather all is good or not.

Chances are there are methods and equipment that can be used to measure and determine the suitability of the present gear for rebuild that would be much more accurate than an eyeball of a picture!

 

[longtrman]

Any good suggestions for internet sites that sell reasonably priced engine parts for a 172 ci diesel engine?

I've checked out Phil's Tractor & Supply and Walt's tractors and I can pick up most of my shopping list, is there somewhere else you guys trust that I should check out??

My Shopping list:
1. Complete engine gasket set.
2. 0.02 sized piston - complete ring set
3. Main bearings (probably 0.001 undersized)
4. Rod Bearings (probably 0.001 undersized)

Thanks
Pete

PS Might be a few weeks. My wife side-swiped a (stationary) telephone pole last weekend and we have a $500 deductible. . . ugh.

Tym , I have a 172-6008D gasket set that has been on the shelf for several years ($30.00), .010 rod insert set ($25.28) .010 main bearing insert set ($41.34). All are Tisco. McCord made the head gasket and Clevite made some of the bearings. You would have to pay UPS freight charges and UPS C.O.D charge in addition if that would help you any.
When you go back together with this engine be sure to put the rod caps on the rods with both tangs together. If you put the cap on backwards it will lock up the engine. I have already found two ford 172 engines that the factory had made the rods wrong. I believe that the I&T manual will tell you to go by either the identifiaction numbers stamped into the rod and cap or the words on the cap but instead look for the tangs on the inserts and put them together. Also if you use the seal sticks that seal the side of the rear main bearing cap install them as stated in I&T. Most of us no longer use the factory seal sticks at all. We use heavy cotton packing string driven tightly into the hole with a slender punch until the hole is full of packed string. Be sure to stagger the ring end gaps. The rings will rotate on the pistons somewhat but start with them staggered. I would like to see you have the crank tested (Magna fluxed or dye tested). When I was young I carried a crank into the engine shop to be tested. The tester picked up the shaft, set it down on the rear end of the shaft on a concrete floor and pronounced it bad. When I insisted he show me, Magna flux showed a crack I couldn't see. He could hear that the shaft didn't ring when it hit the floor.
Longtrman

 

[TYMinColton]

Tym , I have a 172-6008D gasket set that has been on the shelf for several years ($30.00), .010 rod insert set ($25.28) .010 main bearing insert set ($41.34). All are Tisco. McCord made the head gasket and Clevite made some of the bearings. You would have to pay UPS freight charges and UPS C.O.D charge in addition if that would help you any.
When you go back together with this engine be sure to put the rod caps on the rods with both tangs together. If you put the cap on backwards it will lock up the engine. I have already found two ford 172 engines that the factory had made the rods wrong. I believe that the I&T manual will tell you to go by either the identifiaction numbers stamped into the rod and cap or the words on the cap but instead look for the tangs on the inserts and put them together. Also if you use the seal sticks that seal the side of the rear main bearing cap install them as stated in I&T. Most of us no longer use the factory seal sticks at all. We use heavy cotton packing string driven tightly into the hole with a slender punch until the hole is full of packed string. Be sure to stagger the ring end gaps. The rings will rotate on the pistons somewhat but start with them staggered. I would like to see you have the crank tested (Magna fluxed or dye tested). When I was young I carried a crank into the engine shop to be tested. The tester picked up the shaft, set it down on the rear end of the shaft on a concrete floor and pronounced it bad. When I insisted he show me, Magna flux showed a crack I couldn't see. He could hear that the shaft didn't ring when it hit the floor.
Longtrman

Thanks Longtrman. I'll let you know about your parts offer. The pistons are still connected to the rods and the top of the each piston is clearly marked "front". If I understood your point about rod caps and tangs correctly, this should take care of that problem. Based on the overall condition of this engine I have no plans to overhaul the pistons.

I am curious about the cotton packing string option though. So, you just pick up some heavy gauge cotton (from automotive supply? craft shop?) and just pack it into the gap, huh? Sounds simple enough.

 

[longtrman]

Thanks Longtrman. I'll let you know about your parts offer. The pistons are still connected to the rods and the top of the each piston is clearly marked "front". If I understood your point about rod caps and tangs correctly, this should take care of that problem. Based on the overall condition of this engine I have no plans to overhaul the pistons.

I am curious about the cotton packing string option though. So, you just pick up some heavy gauge cotton (from automotive supply? craft shop?) and just pack it into the gap, huh? Sounds simple enough.

The rod cap is the part of the rod that unbolts from the bottom of the rod. Don't turn it around. The tangs that keep the bearing insert (shell) from spinning go together. Cotton packing string like you used to see on packages in the mail. Your wife probably has some laying aroud the house. I once was fooled by an engine. Cylinder bores looked good but the pistons had too much side clearance. When I miked it it had had the ridge removed with a ridge reamer and honed a great deal. Yours doesn't show much ring end gap so it probably hasn't been done that way. What is the clearance of the small end bushings like on the rod wrist pins? They aren't too expensive but have to be installed by a machine shop. One fellow touched on the fact the rods might have a slight bend. He didn't say that ; he just said there was something he didn't like about the wear pattern on the inserts. Could you post pictures of the side of the pistons showing the wrist pin holes if you haven't cleaned the pistons. It may show a skewed wear pattern indicative of a bent rod. You can't spend very much on rebuilding a Selecto-speed tractor because the transmission parts are no longer available and could give up any time.

 

[john_bud]

I disagree on the cotton packing. Get the side sticks. But, DON'T dip them in oil before installing them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have about 0.32821 seconds to insert them before they swell up too big to fit. I know. Just install them dry and dribble 3n1 oil or ATF on them in the morning before work and in the evening when you come home. They will swell up fine. Or you can just accept a small dribble for a week or so until the crank oil swells them up.

But, you should get the parts from Longtrack, good price for good parts.

jb

 

[TYMinColton]

0.32821 seconds

You know. . . I am a scientist - 328 ms sounds like a challenge . Point taken . So, is it really true that you can't find parts for an SOS tranny? I guess now that I think about it, none of the sites I've visited state having such parts. . . guess I'd have to just find a 4 speed tranny housing if things go south .

Longtrman - already cleaned up the pistons, so might be impossible at this point to determine if piston travel is OOR. Cyls were not OOR, so I'm not sure why the bearings have the linear scratches (dirt?). The cross hatch was on the backside of the rod bearings. Looked more like what you might get after honing a cylinder than anything else. I figure the cross-hatch was to help stick oil. . . .????

 

[Soundguy]

No it's not true.. some new parts are still available from CNH, and you can find places selling salvage parts with a simple internet search. heck.. you can find entire trans setting on crates waiting to ship if you want to spend the cash.

mind you the parts are expensive.. but they are out there. still.. for my money.. I wouldn't want an sos tranny....


soundguy

 

[TYMinColton]

. still.. for my money.. I wouldn't want an sos tranny....

I think we're all in general agreement about this last point. Certainly some folks out there have had good luck with SOS, and many are still functioning OK. Hopefully this list still includes my SOS that did work well before the engine seized (PTO not withstanding). I still think that my best bet will be to get her running again, and down the road try and sell her . . . we'll see. Enjoying the ride thus far!

Soundguy, do you know a quick and dirty way to access CNH's parts lists? I looked around the internet a bunch and couldn't find a simple search engine. Also, I have New Holland dealers around, but they don't seem to be affiliated with Case. Is CNH primarily for parts distribution or something?

P

 

[Soundguy]

www.newholland.com

from there choose ag or industrial.. then choose where you are ( north america? )

then choose search for parts .. then parts search.. eventuall spawns a search page.. put the ford /NH model number in.. then search.. then pick your machine out of the list, then it breaks it down by system... some systems have further breakdowns.. shows parts list and exploded diagram.

soundguy

 

[RobJ]

I disagree on the cotton packing. Get the side sticks.

What exactly are side sticks? All I've ever dealt with were rope seals(gm cars, etc), 2 piece neoprene seals (never worked that well), or the newer diesels I worked on have a rear seal plate with a 1 piece neoprene seal (the best).

Rob

 

[john_bud]

Re: side sticks

On the 172 engine the rear main bearing cap is a large deal that extends to the bottom of the skirt. So, it's like 2" or a bit more tall. It is a fairly tight fit into its little area, but not oil tight. So Ford in their infinite wisdom cut grooves in the cap and in those grooves you slide in little gasket sticks. They are made of paper and expand when oil hits them. They are supposed to be dunked in oil quickly then quickly slid into place before they quickly expand and won't fit.

 

[RobJ]

Thanks JB, sounds sorta like a rope seal. Funny what you get when you google rope seal.