New Garage Pole Barn 40 x 64 x 12

[yooperdave]

My snow load is quite large in the U.P. - 60 psf ground in my location near the WI border.

However, I was able to squeeze in a 4 psf truss bottom chord load in case I wanted to put in a ceiling and insulation. The truss plant is not far away and they do a good job.

48' was as wide as I could get to max out the trusses. That is why I added the (2) lean to's.

Yooper Dave

 

[jayste]

My building looks so small when the flags are staked off, yet it is twice the size I just sold. I wonder if everyone feels that way until it is under roof.

Isn't it funny how even a 2000 sf home's slab will look small until you build the house on top of it.

Jay

 

[Steve C]

Final Drawings with a few minor changes to be made. I am taking these to the County for approval and comments. I already found out that supports under the trusses have to be bolted. I cannot believe that they would use 2 x 4. I would think that they have to be 2 x 10 or larger?

Main building is 40 x 64 x 12. One porch is 20 x 16 on the left and the one porch
on the front is 32 x 16.

Front Elevation

Side Elevations

Section Drawings

Porch Gable Sectional Drawing

You are building a 12 foot tall building with only a 10 foot tall and 8 foot tall doors. If you only need 10 foot tall doors, save yourself some money and build a 10 foot tall building. (I would never do that, I had one and hated it.) You should have at least one door that is a full 12 foot tall slider or you are wasting your money on the taller side walls.

If you do need the 12 foot tall height, then build at least a 13 foot tall building if you want to use overhead doors or better yet build a 14 foot tall building with 13 foot tall doors. You will never regret it. It will add little to the cost and with the size of your building and porches it will look better proportioned and increase its usefulness and therefore resale value.

 

[hcallaway]

The doors are wrong on the drawing. I don't know where the draftsman came up with that. The door on the front is 16 x 10 and the door on the gable side is now going to be 16 x 11. I had planned on it being 16 x 10 but after some early comments I realized I had the overhead space to go 16 x 11 and pick up that extra foot on that one door.

I just got back from the planning office and they approved the drawings but I have to have them stamped by a PE.

 

[Diamondpilot]

The doors are wrong on the drawing. I don't know where the draftsman came up with that. The door on the front is 16 x 10 and the door on the gable side is now going to be 16 x 11. I had planned on it being 16 x 10 but after some early comments I realized I had the overhead space to go 16 x 11 and pick up that extra foot on that one door.

I just got back from the planning office and they approved the drawings but I have to have them stamped by a PE.

Mark my words, you are going to kick yourself for not going with a 14' tall barn. I have seen it happen 3 times in the last 7 years, including myself, saying I will never own anything that I would need a door that tall for.

Chris

 

[hcallaway]

I saved $7500 today. I mentioned at the beginning of my post that I picked up the land at a discount price. $26K. I was able to negotiate this price down because the land had issues getting a power easement and a deeded right of way. The result of Bad Blood between neighbors and or family members. As best I can tell the issues with everyone were more imagined than real. The Land was under contract for $58K by another person. I had signed to buy it at 40K when it was re-listed at $48K (contingent on me getting a power easement). Later I dropped my offer to $15K and finally bought it at $26K. Most of the decline in price was due to my cost in getting a power easement. The land was land-locked and while you can force the issue with access via prescriptive easement etc.... no one has to give you power. At least that is the way it is in Virginia. I was able to convince one neighbor to offer to give me the easement for $10K. (The power co-op was not happy that I was paying or had to pay as they expect people to be neighborly and I was setting a bad precedence.) For $10K I was going to have 2 - 3 poles set across a field next to the trees on a boundary. This is out of his way and in no way interferes with how he can use his property.

As it came time to pay him, I asked to give him two checks. I wanted to give him one when I closed and the other final payment when he signed the easement. He sent me a letter asking for Cash or a Certified Check, not two but one Check was all he would take. He also said in his notarized letter that as of 12-16-09 his offer for power was null and void.

After meeting one of the other property owners and being very respectful, I explained what I was doing with my purchase and that I wanted to be a good neighbor. I also told him how I was getting power since they were not interested. (I never asked him for power but I could tell he found it interesting that I was willing to pay.) Five weeks later he dropped by and asked if I had signed anything about getting power. (He denied that anyone in his family had ever been approached), I told him that it was worth up to $4K to help get him interested. The next day he accepted my $2K for his sister as a token of my appreciation and I also gave him $500 for making the offer to his family member and to build good will down the road. I now have all the papers at the power co-op and they are ready to roll when I give them the word.

I am not sure why my check was not any good in my neighbors opinion. When his offer becomes null and void, he may start to wonder what I am going to have to pay him for access to power. It will not be a very happy moment when he realizes that he will not be seeing the 10K since he would not work with me.

I am going to send him a gift card for $100 for his time and effort. I don't know how it will be received but I plan on telling him that I was sorry I could not transact the deal as he demanded.

 

[hcallaway]

Mark my words, you are going to kick yourself for not going with a 14' tall barn. I have seen it happen 3 times in the last 7 years, including myself, saying I will never own anything that I would need a door that tall for.

Chris

The only way I am going to need a barn that can fit a boat like yours is to sleep with Tiger Woods and sell a book. You may be right but I have room to play with at the new place. At least you got me thinking about how to do an 11' door. Many thanks for that!!!

 

[wedge40]

The only way I am going to need a barn that can fit a boat like yours is to sleep with Tiger Woods and sell a book. You may be right but I have room to play with at the new place. At least you got me thinking about how to do an 11' door. Many thanks for that!!!

Funny, but it sounds like you'd be in a very long line.

Yooperdave - Just how many sleds do you have? Thats a huge barn.

Wedge

 

[yooperdave]

Funny, but it sounds like you'd be in a very long line.

Yooperdave - Just how many sleds do you have? Thats a huge barn.

Wedge

Part of the shed (15' x 22' with the windows and door) will be turned into a rec room / work shop. The overhang adjacent will make a nice area to socialize in the summer.

The pontoon boat, tractor, attachments, trailer, mowers, etc all take up a fair amount of room. The garage next door is dedicated to storing 2 vehicles and small items.

I have learned over the years to never under estimate how much shed you will need.

Regards,

Yooper Dave

 

[Diamondpilot]

The only way I am going to need a barn that can fit a boat like yours is to sleep with Tiger Woods and sell a book. You may be right but I have room to play with at the new place. At least you got me thinking about how to do an 11' door. Many thanks for that!!!

Its not just the boat. I was offered a dump truck to use in exchange for doing some work on it first. Its a Ford F800. It need new front brakes, a oil change, hydraulic fluid change, tires rotated, ect. Guess what, it would not fit. I was also offered by the same guy his Case 580 Back Hoe to use on a project. He keeps his stuff under cover when not in use so I though I would do the same. Again, it would not fit. I also offered to store my uncles camper for the winter since my boat did not fit. The camper would not go either. Time and time again I run into this.

I just want you to really think about it. I never thought I would need 14' but I have. My uncle did the same thing and now kicks himself since he bought the camper I offered to store and will not fit in his 10' door. Guy down the street has the same issues. Plans and life changes things and I own things I never though I would have. Just do not want you to make the same mistake I did.

Glad you got the power situation worked out. He is going to kick himself.


Chris

 

[bugstruck]

I'd add some diagonal bracing at the corner in plane with the bottom chord of the trusses once you get the vertical loading squared away. Just make sure your PE understands framing and lumber. A family member had an indoor riding facility that was never braced off properly (at least your guys are doing gable bracing in more than one location). Bottom line is the trusses started tilting over time. One PE later (first one promulgated the collapse with a boneheaded sequence of construction for the repair) (I offered an opinion before they started but they didn't like it) and a $138K insurance settlement later and it stopped looking like a 1000 lb bomb had landed dead center. Most important thing is via one phone call I received from family when the failure was mid process everybody got out alive. They were trying to rebrace it from inside and underneath while truss plates were popping. How dumb can one get? Getting structure right on them is well, important.

 

[Steve C]

The only way I am going to need a barn that can fit a boat like yours is to sleep with Tiger Woods and sell a book. You may be right but I have room to play with at the new place. At least you got me thinking about how to do an 11' door. Many thanks for that!!!

Congratulations on the power easement negotiations. I think you have just discovered who your "good" neighbors are. Do not give the other guy anything except for a one fingered salute. He isn't the sort of person you would want as a neighbor or a friend.

Take the money you saved and buy a 14 foot tall main structure. You will not be sorry. It is the best money you will ever spend. I was pricing out pole buildings and I discovered that the difference between a 10 foot high 40 x 60 building and a 14 foot high 40 x 60 building was less than 10%. Wait a minute, I am getting 40% more building for 10%?????? WTF? That is a huge increase in usable space.

As a structure assumes the shape of a cube it becomes more efficient to build per cubic volume. The roof and supporting structure are much more expensive than the side walls because they have to handle snow loads, and it doesn't matter how high off the ground they are. The side walls have to handle wind loads. Not a big deal. So since your expensive part is the roof, push it up there as high as possible and get the space for almost free.

I wish I had gone to a 16 foot building...I didn't think about the possibilities because I was dealing with the loss of 40 years of stuff and the building, but if I had it to do over again I would have spent the extra $1500 to go to a full 16 foot side wall. But hey, 14 is prettty sweet There is amost nothing that can be driven down the road that won't fit in there.

 

[mikeyee]

Getting it stamped by PE shouldn't be too hard provided you know what kind of loads the structure will be holding up. I used to be a cad drafter during college and from what I can see from the drawings is the lack of detail on the materials used (what kind of bolts, what kind of arrangements of supports, the design of each load beam with the cross beams (whether its bolted on outside of welded)). These all probably might not make a difference (it did on some projects I worked on) but eventually you'll have to make sure it all works out.

Electrical is a good price reducer and I wish you luck in getting service out there. From my experience in texas, it takes about 6months to a year to get power and running on generators cost quite a bit of change. Good luck on your project!

 

[Duffster]

I'd add some diagonal bracing at the corner in plane with the bottom chord of the trusses once you get the vertical loading squared away. Just make sure your PE understands framing and lumber. A family member had an indoor riding facility that was never braced off properly (at least your guys are doing gable bracing in more than one location). Bottom line is the trusses started tilting over time. One PE later (first one promulgated the collapse with a boneheaded sequence of construction for the repair) (I offered an opinion before they started but they didn't like it) and a $138K insurance settlement later and it stopped looking like a 1000 lb bomb had landed dead center. Most important thing is via one phone call I received from family when the failure was mid process everybody got out alive. They were trying to rebrace it from inside and underneath while truss plates were popping. How dumb can one get? Getting structure right on them is well, important.

Why do you need diagonal braces if you have gable braces?

 

[yooperdave]

Believe it or not, the level of detail submitted here and getting an engineers review is far and away better than what happens to most pole buildings.

My builder had to deal with me as a Structural PE - but I warned him in advance and we worked thru most of the issues to satisfaction. I do not think he lost money on my job, but I made sure he addressed my sturctural concerns which did use some of his resources.

Builders (and many Architects) like to use statistical engeering. The statististics change when there is a big wind or big snow and then they start to look for the advice of Structural Engineers after something fell down or someone got hurt.

I did have 1 question though: Where is your slab on grade, and is it figured into your clear height of your building? Usually, the slab is several inches higher than the outside grade for drainage reasons. My building is 12'-5" high - 12' clear, and 5" for the slab on grade. From first galnce, you will only have 11'-6" to 11'-8" clearance - NOT 12' as possibly intended.

Good Luck on your project.

Yooper Dave

 

[hcallaway]

I did have 1 question though: Where is your slab on grade, and is it figured into your clear height of your building? Usually, the slab is several inches higher than the outside grade for drainage reasons. My building is 12'-5" high - 12' clear, and 5" for the slab on grade. From first galnce, you will only have 11'-6" to 11'-8" clearance - NOT 12' as possibly intended.

Good Luck on your project.

Yooper Dave

My loss on height will be between 0-4". The kick board will be off the ground and I may have to add an additional treated board on the bottom. I will have to back fill once the building is up.

 

[hcallaway]

Getting it stamped by PE shouldn't be too hard provided you know what kind of loads the structure will be holding up. I used to be a cad drafter during college and from what I can see from the drawings is the lack of detail on the materials used (what kind of bolts, what kind of arrangements of supports, the design of each load beam with the cross beams (whether its bolted on outside of welded)). These all probably might not make a difference (it did on some projects I worked on) but eventually you'll have to make sure it all works out.

Electrical is a good price reducer and I wish you luck in getting service out there. From my experience in texas, it takes about 6months to a year to get power and running on generators cost quite a bit of change. Good luck on your project!

The power will be installed within 3 weeks as soon as I give them the OK as long as the weather is good. They have it already drawn up and I confirmed the signed papers made it back to their office. I don't want power until the building is up and the septic is installed. They will run it underground as soon as it hits my property.

The builder has agreed to eat $175 of the $500 for a PE stamp, not what I wanted but he had some wiggle room in the contract if the local codes require any changes. I am out an additional $375 but at least I will have a set of stamped plans if I need to use them again.
I called a good friend (PE) to see what he thought of the price to get them stamped. He said $500 was not a bad number and his firm would charge more. In his opinion the PE more than likely already has figured out the loads and this is easy money for him.

 

[bugstruck]

Why do you need diagonal braces if you have gable braces?

Ties the outermost corners together in the plane of the bottom chords. In a large pole or framed structure, presumably without interior walls like a home which would provide added shear against lateral wind loading of the walls/gables, the corner braces stiffen the gables againt unusual pressures. Better way to explain it is that if you pushed on the center (bottom) of one gable truss with enough force you could deform the opposite gable in the same direction. Granted, you eventually have to overcome the membrane resistance of the roof (but it's not in that plane) and deform that too.... but when you get larger expanses of gable and end wall exposed to wind, no membrane on the bottom chords (as drywall ceilings are in a home), the structure is much more vulnerable wind to loading. Those corner braces are fast, cheap, and easy. You would have to run calculations on any particular structure to reach a real conclusion but a large span truss pole barn with corner braces may take say another 20 or 30 MPH of wind (on gable) before anything starts to deflect. We are talking larger wind speeds and loads. If it never gets over 60 MPH sustained it problably is not an issue in that rough example. But at 75-80 its potentially a problem. I never built a truss roof house without corner braces (except attic trusses) and they have all kinds of ancillary supports a pole barn doesn't. Haven't framed in my home state of Maryland in quite awhile but you had to have those corner braces in every conventional trussed roof home in the late 70's and early 80's. Not sure what other jurisdictions require.

Large truss center to center spacing on pole barns doesn't help things out either as there are fewer connection points to the purlins or sheathed roof membrane meaning that plane is a bit weaker to start.

Smaller structures are not the same issue as there isn't enough surface area and unbraced expanse to worry about it. Frankly, neither is the average house gable once the drywall is up.

 

[hcallaway]

Can anyone do a simple drawing as I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying?

Why do you need diagonal braces if you have gable braces?

 

[Duffster]

Ties the outermost corners together in the plane of the bottom chords. In a large pole or framed structure, presumably without interior walls like a home which would provide added shear against lateral wind loading of the walls/gables, the corner braces stiffen the gables againt unusual pressures. Better way to explain it is that if you pushed on the center (bottom) of one gable truss with enough force you could deform the opposite gable in the same direction. Granted, you eventually have to overcome the membrane resistance of the roof (but it's not in that plane) and deform that too.... but when you get larger expanses of gable and end wall exposed to wind, no membrane on the bottom chords (as drywall ceilings are in a home), the structure is much more vulnerable wind to loading. Those corner braces are fast, cheap, and easy. You would have to run calculations on any particular structure to reach a real conclusion but a large span truss pole barn with corner braces may take say another 20 or 30 MPH of wind (on gable) before anything starts to deflect. We are talking larger wind speeds and loads. If it never gets over 60 MPH sustained it problably is not an issue in that rough example. But at 75-80 its potentially a problem. I never built a truss roof house without corner braces (except attic trusses) and they have all kinds of ancillary supports a pole barn doesn't. Haven't framed in my home state of Maryland in quite awhile but you had to have those corner braces in every conventional trussed roof home in the late 70's and early 80's. Not sure what other jurisdictions require.

Large truss center to center spacing on pole barns doesn't help things out either as there are fewer connection points to the purlins or sheathed roof membrane meaning that plane is a bit weaker to start.

Smaller structures are not the same issue as there isn't enough surface area and unbraced expanse to worry about it. Frankly, neither is the average house gable once the drywall is up.

I still don't see why you would need these along with gable braces. I guess I can't see the gable wall deflecting at all with a properly built gable brace.

Typically one or the other is done around here.