How to kill yourself without knowing

[brin]

As far as reaction time and staying safe in general on our tractors, as an example today I had 2 trees down, big trees at the farm and I had my tractor with FEL..and my chain saw..so I took my time ( Patience ) I was not in a hurry and would not let myself be even though there was a Georgia ? Vanderbuilt game I wanted to see real bad..

I carefully approached the biggest pine and found there was no way my loader was going to help since I began to tip when I attempted to lift it ...so I backed off and went to the chain saw...as I cut 6 foot chunks off the tree I pulled them away with the draw bar slow and easy to my dump site...I say it is just " Patience " and careful considration of what you are doing while realizing it could be the last thing you ever do if you do it wrong..that is the way to stay safe...no matter what physics dictates..you go slow and easy...do not be in a hurry and take it seriously and study what you are about to do and the lay of the land, position of your loader and then test it little by little and that should prevent an untimely departure from this life...Just my 2 cents.

 

[HiddenHollow]

Brin nailed it! You have to slow down and pay attention. I work at a cogeneration plant and work with electricity, steam, and objects rotating at thousands of rpms. You can't just grab hold of something because you think there is a problem with it. You have to take a look and see what needs to be secured so you can work on it. People are in way to much of a hurry. If people slowed down and thought about what they where doing we would not have all those stickers on equipment saying "KEEP HANDS AWAY". As far as reaction time , if you are anticipating certain things you can react fairly quick but if you get thrown a curve ball you will be a little slower to react.


P.S. Ann Rand knows who John Galt is.

 

[SPYDERLK]

...no matter what physics dictates..you go slow and easy

:confused2: Huh?!
larry

 

[texasjohn]

Brin, while I agree with your approach, I suggest you add rear weight.... if you EVER begin to "tip" this means you don't have sufficient rear weight. The hydraulic relief valve should release before tipping the tractor. If it doesn't, then you are missing out on "all your tractor can be".... and making more work for yourself.... not saying you didn't need to use saw on the trees, just that maybe it would have taken fewer cuts to get there.

 

[nebraskasparks]

Well the thread and the argument for cognitive reaction time is not dead!

I've been doing research on tractors and FEL stability and ran across an accident report that showed that the operator made a deliberate attempt to "bail" off the tractor. So much for the instantaneous reaction time argument made by various members in the TBN community that think they can jump ship faster than a tractor can flip.

A T-38 trainer used by the USAF could rotate 720 degrees (two complete revolutions) around the longitudinal axis in under one second. Powerful moment arm to say the least.

A tractor with an FEL can flip faster than a human can react according to the evidence of some of these reports. Compound this with a slick muddy surface (feedlot) and a slight angle while turning downhill ...how fast can it flip? Most of the accidents that I have been reading show the FEL above the hood of the tractor.
If we start looking at the fact that these operators are experienced (some over the age of 60) therefore had experience with near tip experiences...then other factors come into play.
What tractor operations constitute a "reaction time" response versus operations that need a "cognitive thought out solution".

 

[/pine]

Well the thread and the argument for cognitive reaction time is not dead!

...but using unsubstantiated data makes it moot...

A T-38 trainer used by the USAF could rotate 720 degrees (two complete revolutions) around the longitudinal axis in under one second. Powerful moment arm to say the least.

hardly relative...in case you haven't noticed there is a big difference between a training jet and a tractor with a front end loader...

 

[nebraskasparks]

...but using unsubstantiated data makes it moot...



hardly relative...in case you haven't noticed there is a big difference between a training jet and a tractor with a front end loader...

Hey / Pine....long time no hear! Good to hear from you.

In case you haven't noticed....the laws of motion and gravity affect all heavenly and earthly bodies (Reference Issac Newton and Einstein...and many other sources that I am unable to document at the moment)

In case you haven't noticed...There is very little difference between a tractor rolling around its longitudinal axis or an aircraft. Both have resistance factors whether it be soil, air, tires, aircraft drag...both have huge moment arms whether it be an aileron in a 400 knot airstream or a bucket loaded with heavy material.
Matter of fact...a tractor sitting sideways on a slope with a bucket of material raised over the hood of the tractor has the exact same rolling characteristics of an aircraft to pitch UP and OVER.

CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE STUDY OF THE DYNAMICS OF AGRICULTURAL
TRACTORS EQUIPPED WITH FRONT-END LOADER AND REAR FORKLIFT LOADER
Simion Popescu, Nastase Sutru
Transilvania University of Brasov/Romania, Faculty of Alimentation and Tourism
simipop38@yahoo.com, sutru_nastase@yahoo.com

Physics are physics and the laws affect all bodies in many of the same ways. Are the forces exerted on these bodies exactly identical .... of course not.

The jet and the tractor are identical in that they can move fast enough around the longitudinal axis to kill an experienced operator no matter what is reaction speed is...even if he did have lightning fast nerves.

Good to hear from you.

 

[/pine]

Hey / Pine....long time no hear! Good to hear from you.

I've been around...it's almost Halloween and I always dress up as 'The Devils Advocate' ...got to keep things interesting...

Your dedication and research on the subject (both threads) may very well save sombody's butt...more power to you...

 

[nebraskasparks]

I've been around...it's almost Halloween and I always dress up as 'The Devils Advocate' ...got to keep things interesting...

Your dedication and research on the subject (both threads) may very well save sombody's butt...more power to you...

Your the kind of guy that keeps us honest and that's admirable. Iron sharpening iron is an excellent thing.
The legal system has caused companies to "hide" the information or not release it and it's up to us to educate our "own" from getting hurt.
You hit it on the head....I have to much experience at funerals and I will spend every moment of my life trying to help people stay out of harms way. I'll drag em to the water hole, I might even force their head under water after I've salted their feed...but I can't make them drink!

 

[gauthier]

Yep,we are all accidents waiting to happen

 

[crazyal]

I don't have an impressive education to back this up so take it for what it's worth. I believe the 5 seconds is true, sometimes.

I was helping my neighbor unload a 4 drum dust collector off of his trailer with the FEL on my backhoe. I knew it was heavy so I was trying to be real careful. My right front tire dropped into a slight dip and I was going over, in less than a second I pushed the lever to drop the FEL down and kept myself upright. I knew what I would need to do so all that was involved was to push the lever. 5 seconds would have left me on my side.

Another time I used the hand throttle to rev the motor up a little when I first started the engine on my BH. As it warms up the engine speed increases. After a less than a minute I took off and got a load of dirt then headed up a hill to dump it. Once I dumped the dirt the front wheels started to lift off of the ground. Having no idea why it was happening I bet it took at least 5 seconds (if not longer) to figure out why. What saved me from a much worse accident was the fact I knew the rear is very heavy and when doing this type of work I lower the outriggers to a point where they are just off of the ground.

So think it depends on the situation and if it's unexpected or not. In the case of a pilot 5 seconds to analyze all the instrumentation, what you are feeling, and what your eyes are telling you then remember all your training to correct the problem is a very short period of time.

 

[TripleR]

I don't have an impressive education to back this up so take it for what it's worth. I believe the 5 seconds is true, sometimes.

I was helping my neighbor unload a 4 drum dust collector off of his trailer with the FEL on my backhoe. I knew it was heavy so I was trying to be real careful. My right front tire dropped into a slight dip and I was going over, in less than a second I pushed the lever to drop the FEL down and kept myself upright. I knew what I would need to do so all that was involved was to push the lever. 5 seconds would have left me on my side.

Another time I used the hand throttle to rev the motor up a little when I first started the engine on my BH. As it warms up the engine speed increases. After a less than a minute I took off and got a load of dirt then headed up a hill to dump it. Once I dumped the dirt the front wheels started to lift off of the ground. Having no idea why it was happening I bet it took at least 5 seconds (if not longer) to figure out why. What saved me from a much worse accident was the fact I knew the rear is very heavy and when doing this type of work I lower the outriggers to a point where they are just off of the ground.

So think it depends on the situation and if it's unexpected or not. In the case of a pilot 5 seconds to analyze all the instrumentation, what you are feeling, and what your eyes are telling you then remember all your training to correct the problem is a very short period of time.

No impressive education or credentials here either, but you make good points. While physics is a constant, human reaction is a variable based on so many things. Jerry Miculek and I both shoot, but our reaction times are not quite the same. Jerry Miculek - S&W Demo - Parte 1 - Bing Videos

Reaction times can however be determined as an average and while we may react/act very quickly "most of the time", it only takes one time that you don't.

 

[jonyyuma]

Ok, Thanks for the Physics and the actual caring. I fit the chart on age and lack of hours operating an Fel. Already been on the slope and forgot 4 wheel drive???Hairy to say the least, Drop the bucket!!!jy.

 

[patrick_g]

Sparky, Why do you persist in using facts, logic, and common sense to present your reasoned point of view when it is obvious to even the most casual observer that these "artifices" hold no sway on the good old boys whose minds are made up and not open to reality?

Now if you could work some definitive trustworthy methodology into your presentation such as the Magic 8 Ball or Ouija board or divining via chicken entrails maybe you'd get through to Billie Joe Don Bob (AKA Bubba.)

Patrick

 

[TripleR]

That sounded pretty harsh.

 

[patrick_g]

That sounded pretty harsh.

Oh well, you say poh-tay-toe and he says po-tah-toe... I thought I was being mostly funny but I guess you can take anything nearly any way. Your perception is your reality, my perception is my reality, and we are probably both wrong.

Patrick

 

[farmfun]

Oh well, you say poh-tay-toe and he says po-tah-toe... I thought I was being mostly funny but I guess you can take anything nearly any way. Your perception is your reality, my perception is my reality, and we are probably both wrong.

Patrick

But if you're both wrong, wouldn't that make you right?:laughing:

 

[nebraskasparks]

Sparky, Why do you persist in using facts, logic, and common sense to present your reasoned point of view when it is obvious to even the most casual observer that these "artifices" hold no sway on the good old boys whose minds are made up and not open to reality?

Now if you could work some definitive trustworthy methodology into your presentation such as the Magic 8 Ball or Ouija board or divining via chicken entrails maybe you'd get through to Billie Joe Don Bob (AKA Bubba.)

Patrick

Hello Patrick,

I know what you're trying to say...thanks for reading the thread.

My Dad didn't marry the farmers daughter so to speak and spent almost 40 years in law enforcement. A lot of it was spent as a detective and he always went for the facts....I think something rubbed off.

In relation to "Bubba"...I spent all my growing up summers on Uncles farms and ranches and loved the "Bubba" part of the family back in Nebraska and still have a huge heart for the working class even though it doesn't have an "impressive" education. What impressed me about my family was how sharp and common sensed they were even though some of my Uncle's had an 8th grade education. One of my Uncle's was a GEM of a mechanic and had some overheating problems with some new IH tractors the family had purchased. He "figured" that the oil cooler surface area was too small...built a better one and called IH and told them he had solved their "overheating" problem. They immediately sent a team of college educated engineers out to Nebraska to see how this country "hick" had succeeded where they had failed.

I know what you mean about receiving some flack from people that have a hard time understanding that the brain in many situations isn't lightning fast and that's the point I was trying to get across to TBN audience which includes Doctors...all the way to Bubba. I hate seeing anybody get hurt or killed no matter what class they come from. If this thread opens up a new attitude toward tractors, physics, and cognitive versus reactive thinking which results in a safer operator....I'll take the flack. TBN has an excellent crowd of folks that really know what they are talking about when it comes to equipment. A lot of them haven't been exposed to physics and cognitive reasoning which they are exposed to every day they operate their equipment.

When it comes to TRUTH of a matter or new information that people haven't been exposed to ...you can in fact expect the raised eyebrows and off color comments. That's the first stage...
Then comes the 2nd stage and the crowd that vehemently denies it because it's "too" different from what they have known. After a lot of hot debate then people start to think (3rd stage) and when they know it's correct...it's accepted as fact.

After looking at the facts and seeing accident/death reports involving quite a few old fellas with a lot of tractor time under the tail ...I decided to open my trap because I know the Truth about being caught in situations that come "unexpectedly" and we are all terribly mortal.

The laws of physics apply to every human being (TBN) operator and the things I learned in aviation do in fact cross over to the machinery that the TBN crowd operates. No ifs ands or buts.

If I stirred the pot (and I did!) and got people to start thinking about how fast an accident can happen and how slow the brain can be at times...then everyone gets to come home. If we get people thinking about center of gravity, moment arms, weight and balance...then we've succeeded. When we pass on information about how we almost hurt ourselves...then we save another life.

The price of taking a few verbal shots...priceless when Bubba comes home and gets to hug his kids.

 

[texasjohn]

Nebraskasparks, well said.

Let's all come home at night and hug someone.

 

[TripleR]

Oh well, you say poh-tay-toe and he says po-tah-toe... I thought I was being mostly funny but I guess you can take anything nearly any way. Your perception is your reality, my perception is my reality, and we are probably both wrong.

Patrick

I dare not delve too deeply into epistemological constructs, but your perceptions are just that, reality is separate, verifiable and constant.

I defer to one the great philosophers.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

All meant in fun and you are probably right, we both are probably wrong, though having never been wrong before, I have no frame of reference.:laughing: