Maybe we should have gotten a crankcase heater in the L3940!

[leonz]

If his dealer stated that these models have had "problems" why was the machine not pulled and repaired by him if a service bulletin exists??????????????????????

An indirect injection diesel will pull water through first as water is in the bottom of the tank as well as fuel and pump any fuel and water not pumped into the cylinder head back to tank and remix the mess.

Water in diesel fuel will ruin an injection pump from rust.

A plugged tank strainer will also create the problems with starting until the fuel starts pumping an it if pushed through the tanks return line which may be submerged at the time.

I did not state he needed a new injection pump.

"I asked why the banjo bolt bleeder was not cracked" to see if it was getting fuel continously at idle. this would solved that question.

In my experience changing air filters has been and always will be much less expensive than engine repairs, yes they cost money but piece of mind is more important and a set of inner and outer filters are cheap in the scheme of things.


The engine is still moving the same amount of intake air per "Revolution" at idle so its still sucking a lot of air only slower.

It also make me wonder if this engines timing was changed and "advanced"
or "retarded" when the machine was assembled which in turn effects the fuel delivery when cold.

 

[TripleR]

No one should feel embarrassed y'all were trying to help. It didn't make
back today, hopefully it make it back tomorrow. You should have heard her
when I said they might leave outside at the dealership tonight. She and her
late Dad never left any tractor outside in the elements. Man did she get loud,
"they better not" she said.

I appreciate all the suggestions. I will definitely post any and all details they
give us when it comes back. It's suppose to snow in the morning so it may not
make back tomorrow either. What do most dealers charge for pickup and
delivery back, I figure around $150. We have a Hudson trailer that would haul
but it's never been titled and tagged, she and my son use it to haul round bales.

I'm going clean the fuel filter regardless when it gets back, book says kerosene
but wouldn't mineral spirits do it?

I no longer clean fuel filters on mine.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/178075-cleaning-fuel-filters.html

 

[leonz]

No one should feel embarrassed y'all were trying to help. It didn't make
back today, hopefully it make it back tomorrow. You should have heard her
when I said they might leave outside at the dealership tonight. She and her
late Dad never left any tractor outside in the elements. Man did she get loud,
"they better not" she said.

I appreciate all the suggestions. I will definitely post any and all details they
give us when it comes back. It's suppose to snow in the morning so it may not
make back tomorrow either. What do most dealers charge for pickup and
delivery back, I figure around $150. We have a Hudson trailer that would haul
but it's never been titled and tagged, she and my son use it to haul round bales.

I'm going clean the fuel filter regardless when it gets back, book says kerosene
but wouldn't mineral spirits do it?

Use the kerosene if you have it as the spirits will ruin the new o-rings or simply replace it which is the lesser of two evils, I only want you to succeed sir thats all.

If you use a pair of SMV signs on the truck and trailer and use the 4 ways you should be alright I would think to haul it back.

I would not charge you for this haulage as it is an issue known to them but the plugged fuel tank issue still bugs me.

 

[Grateful11]

Use the kerosene if you have it as the spirits will ruin the new o-rings or simply replace it which is the lesser of two evils, I only want you to succeed sir thats all.

If you use a pair of SMV signs on the truck and trailer and use the 4 ways you should be alright I would think to haul it back.

I would not charge you for this haulage as it is an issue known to them but the plugged fuel tank issue still bugs me.

We don't keep kerosene on hand, plenty of diesel but no kerosene.

In this state you'd get a ticket without a tag on the trailer, we have tags on the cattle and utility trailer.

What plugged fuel line do you speak of?

 

[leonz]

Your fuel tank should have a strainer screen at the base of the tank if it is botttom draw tank.

Is the screen for the filler neck still in place?

 

[gerard]

I have my L2500 in an unheated, uninsulated garage. While I can start it with the glowplugs ok, I have a block heater on a timer. If you have cows you probably need the tractor around the same time each day so a timer would be perfect. Have it come on an hour or two before you need it and she'll start right up. 15 minutes is not a long time to run. It probably takes about that long to get the whole engine up to operating temp and I seriously doubt that it's putting the charge back in the battery that was taken out by starting. For that reason I'd either let it run longer and or throw a charger on it once in awhile. A multi tester will tell you the voltage. Should be over 13volts even though it's a 12 volt battery. 12.7, 12.8 is about right too for a fully charged battery. My tractor just turned 10 and it's still on the original battery. I attribute that mainly to a pretty long running time once she gets started. (That's just how it gets used. I do use 15w40 amsoil year round but a thinner oil in the winter wouldn't hurt. A block heater's only $50 or you can get the ones that stick to the oil pan but I think they would sustain damage in snow and brush. Another simple way is to get a 100watt clamp lighbulb. Clamp it to a jackstand and face it upwards right against the oil pan. The reflector contains the heat and directs it all to the oil pan. Just leave it on 24/7 when not using it. Does a pretty good job keeping the block and oil warm if kept on all the time.

 

[Johnbro]

A multi tester will tell you the voltage. Should be over 13volts even though it's a 12 volt battery. 12.7, 12.8 is about right too for a fully charged battery.

Fully charged 12 volt battery should be 12.68 volts, never 13.

 

[JoeL4330]

Your fuel tank should have a strainer screen at the base of the tank if it is botttom draw tank.

Is the screen for the filler neck still in place?

I have an L4330...about the same as the 5030 and, I would guess the 5040. I don't think there is a strainer screen at the base of the tank...if there were, it would be nearly impossible to service if it clogged...you'd have to take off the hood, dash, etc. to pull the tank ...and then what? The tank outlet is offset from the filler opening so you can't get a tool/vacuum source from one to the other (at least I can't)...and, what would be the point of such a screen...it's easier to clean the fuel line or the fuel filter than to mess with the tank outlet...see my post about blowing back up the fuel line from the fuel-filter-bowl end (from experience).

And, my shop manual doesn't show any such, either ..and my dealers don't know of such, either...some vehicles have such a strainer on the pickup hose in the fuel tank, but that is to protect the fuel pump ...but our Kubotas are gravity feed to the fuel-filter-bowl (and that filter protects the injector pump) ...and, in those other vehicles the pickup (with screen) is (relatively) easily removed, and service or replaced (generally with the "sender" unit)

If I were doing the design, based on my experiences, I would never put in such a screen in this gravity feed system ...but, I might raise the outflow tube (onto which the fuel line connects) a little (an inch, say, protruding into the tank) so that it doesn't pick up the water/sludge at the bottom of the tank ...or perhaps have two tubes one longer, one almost flush) w. a valve the way motorcycle tanks manage their "reserve" ...but in this case, to be able to drain water from tank (as in a wet wing on an airplane)

 

[leonz]

You can use a 1" shop vac flexible hose to clean the bottom of the tanks after the fuel is drained or siphoned out with no trouble. Don't you have the strainer in the filler neck on your L?


The chaff screen in the base of the BX model and other tanks is the last ditch defense against plugging the fuel line with crap.

The biggest problem we have is that the fuel we buy is not filtered to 2 microns and the water stripped out of it before it is vended or pumped into storage tanks by a bob tail delivery truck and the tanks on these trucks are not sacred and they are allowed to move petroleum products to balance the trucks center of gravity and thats were the trouble with diesel fuel, heating oil, and kerosene begins.

I had to switch to kerosene as the fuel oil was so dirty and cruded up with algae and I had water in the tank I could not keep my Reillo burner running.

I still have the same issues with a top draw system as a third of my capacity is lost just to keep the suction line clear and a foot off the bottom of the tank


A double wall tank is no help either as the algae and water love them too.

I will be installing a Racor type marine diesel fuel filter to solve these issues this year for my boilers kerosene system as its the only way to solve the water issues.

 

[JoeL4330]

no strainer in the filler neck of my L4330 ...would normally be a good idea and if there is one for the BX that fits, perhaps I will get one.

In fact, I have a filter and a water bloc on the electric pumps I use from a standing tank or from the tank mounted in my truck bed so that's normally not the problem...except, bugs, especially spiders like to inhabit the pump nozzles ...I now have slip-on covers but I hadn't before...and, the one annoying clog I had was actualy from the label that I had not fully removed from one of the pump nozzles...eventually I drained it out when I drained the tank which is how I know that I have no screen at the outlet of the tank.

As for your suggestion about a shop vac hose, I believe the design of my tank wouldn't permit me to get the hose through the fuel-cap opening and bent into two stiff right angles inside the not-very-deep tank to get over the outlet...and, although some vacs have explosion-proof motors, I don't know about mine (although diesel isn't all that volatile).

I did come up with a trick that could help clear the line, however, when I was replacing the fuel filter on my VW Jetta TDI and lost the prime from the tank ...I have a mitey-vac tool which should have been able to pull a vacuum from the tank, but didn't seem to ...what I did was put the shop vac hose on the output side of the shop vac and fit the end to the car's fuel tank filler tube, and pressurized the tank, slightly, which sent fuel up the line to the filter...worked great and could prove a useful tip for someone.

 

[Grateful11]

If there's a strainer in the filler neck of the L3940 I've never seen it. She goes
through about 500 gallons of diesel a year, she's never had a fuel based problem
with any of the other 3 diesel tractors.

 

[RickB]

If there's a strainer in the filler neck of the L3940 I've never seen it. She goes
through about 500 gallons of diesel a year, she's never had a fuel based problem
with any of the other 3 diesel tractors.

Kinda goes back to buying clean fuel and storing it properly. The more fuel you use, generally the better understanding of proper storage and handlng one has. With a little foresight and planning, nobody should have cold weather fuel issues. And it doesn't take exotic filtering devices to get there.

 

[crazyal]

I have a 55 gallon drum that I bring to the dealer to fill. I have a 12volt pump on it with an inline filter. If you have the means I would suggest getting one as it makes for a real easy time filling your tractor over using plastic jugs.

 

[leonz]

The Racor fuel filtration system is not exotic in anyway,

The use of centrifigal force for separation of particulate matter is nothing new and has been used for many years in many instances especially in medical fields and laboratories
where blood centrifuges require separation for testing and separation of platelets and washed blood cells.

Is used in engine oil purification/cleaning in Duetz and othe engines including gasoline engines with exposed oil delivery lines to oil pumps


It simply uses a stationary turbine to spin out the water and crud from the fuel through the vane assembly below the final water filtration cartridge(s) using the vacuum-Hg.created by the fuel injection pump where the water and debris is spun against the bowl housing as it enters the filter housing and settles to the bottom of the bowl like it does in a gasoline or diesel tank.

They work passively on the tank side of the system by gravity and the injection pumps creation of the pressure gradient to suck the fuel through the tubing to the injection pump. T

This is why the Kubota fuel tubing entering the injection pump is reinforced with a woven sleeve in between the inner and outer fuel line carcass rubber; and why it will work with a LOW pressure delivery system(minus 7 pounds pressure) to the fuel injection pump.

The Racor fuel and filtration sytem has been an industry leader for 30 plus years. A tank mounted Racor filtration system will work handily for any one using diesel fuel and desiring 2-5 micron filtration and complete water separation from thier fuels.


I keep emphasing fuel quality as an issue only because it always bites us-me included.

The Racor and other turbine fitration brands of fuel filters stop all the water from damaging the injection pumps and giving the end user fits because the fuel we buy is not stripped of water and and dirt down to 2 micron which is the industry norm in Japan where these fine engines are built and where the 2 micron filtration passage sizing is the normal state of affairs.

 

[RickB]

The Racor fuel filtration system is not exotic in anyway,

The Racor and other turbine fitration brands of fuel filters stop all the water from damaging the injection pumps and giving the end user fits because the fuel we buy is not stripped of water and and dirt down to 2 micron which is the industry norm in Japan where these fine engines are built and where the 2 micron filtration passage sizing is the normal state of affairs.

Neither Shibaura nor Kubota nor Yanmar specify or equip their engines with 2 micron fuel filters. If these three Japanese companies don't produce "fine Japanese engines", nobody does.

Some of the info you are posting is correct and some is pure fantasy and speculation. Racor units rely on the higher specific gravity of water relative to fuel and provide a bowl at the bottom of the assembly for the heavier water to collect in. Not unlike the bowl found on almost all CUT's. Racor's passive turbine would rely on fuel velocity through the filter to be effective. Given the port sizes on the Racor units I looked at, flow velocities at CUT fuel demands would probably produce limited centrifugal separation. 2 micron filtration is one of several element specifications that Racor lists. I have yet to hear anyone in the fuel or equipment industries (other than yourself) suggest 2 micron filtration at the bulk storage level is advantageous. ULSD fuel can be delivered nearly completely devoid of water contamination and still become water-laden due to improper storage conditions and extended storage intervals. Algae contamination is related to water contamination and is almost always a problem that can be traced to customer storage.

 

[JakeBrake]

Personally, I have not had any trouble starting my Kubota L3830 regardless of the temperature. Of course it doesn't get that cold here. When I do a winter maintenance run, I run the engine until four bars are showing on the digital temperature gauge with the PTO at 540 RPM.

I'm retired now but when I was working as a power equipment engineer, block heaters were standard features on larger stationary diesel generators even in South Florida.

Block heaters are not trouble free. They tend to go open on the coldest day of the winter and overheat on the hottest day of the summer.

 

[leonz]

The water barrier filter cartidge "aquabloc" filter media is the final water filtration stopping point for any water in the fuel of type for ANY fuel AND it will clog it self shut and stop fuel from being delivered.



As I was diesel mechanic involved with the daily maintenace and repair of both high and low horsepower diesel engines that required less than 15 gallons per minute of fuel for thier consumption they performed flawlessly.




The Racor Fuel filter Water Separator system workes works well and has never had any issues other than stopping machines dead while operating as the water filtration cartridge "aquabloc" filter media became plugged and prevented fuel from being delivered to the injection pumps of the mining machinery I maintained and repaired on a daily basis.



The Racor filtration system is offered as standard equipment on many earth movers, diesel powered mining shovels, ocean going vessels, diesel engine power systems and also for smaller automotive gasoline engines as well with the proper filter base.



The Racor 1000 filter model can be used on any diesel engine size as the fuel plumbing will carry fifteen gallons per minute with the 1/4" piping size so thats a non issue, and it is what we used for or machinery and it worked flawlessly with the Duetz injection pumps with no starvation issues due to the possible loss of pressure gradient from the filter due to the settling bolw and the total square area of the filter catridge media.


The larger models have larger filter cartidge media and last longer between fiter changes.


The one thing about fuel transport via truck is that the driver is allowed to balance the truck he is driving by moving fuel to another tank to aid in maintaining the lower center of gravity as baffles can only do so much as a mobile fluid mass exerts a huge amount of force per square inch against stationary baffles.



The the bobtail delivery trucks get emptied and cold weather creates additonal moisture problems. the Semi trailers haul single loads or splits when delivering fuel and any moisure present simply sinks to the bottom of the trailers tanks to be dumped into the underground tank or pumped into the surface storage tanks within a containment tank shell.



The metal of a fuel storage tank is a simple magnet for moisture no matter the fuel or oils simply because of temperature changes cold air is more dence and can convey more moisture into a fuel tank; warm of hit air does not as it is thinner density in its actual volume per cubic foot.



The thing about pipelines is that any pipeline that carries petroleum fuels has issues with corrosion, cavitation, scouring and water...



Every charge of petroluem fuel or oil is separated by a water barrier to segregate the refined petroleum product in order to allow the valves to be switched in time to direct the fuel or oil to the proper storage tank or tanks.



The old tanks with stationary roofs were emptied and refilled and the air gap is subject to moisture entry due to the open tank venting system used at the time which allowed atmosperic air within the tanks to enter and leave to maintain the tanks structure and avoid its collapsing if a vacuum condition occured.

These tanks were and are also subject to the regional temperature changes which affected the structural strength of the tanks in which the tank shell expanded and contracted as the tank absorbed the suns heat or released its stored heat energy at night when it became cooler, and this also required the proper outfitting and maintanence of the pressure venting system and vacuum release valves pressure vents on the tanks roof line with the required proper air control filters and pressure release valves for the smallest pressure changes.


Thses air pressure changes within create huge pressure changes within the tanks shell even when empty. The greater weight at the bottom of a surface fuel or oil storage tank also requires thicker steel sheet construction as the petroleum distillate is creating a huge pressure per square inch against the filled tanks inner surface area exerting less force at the top per square inch and a corresponding greater force per square inch at the bottom due to the volume of petroleum distillates in the tank. The thicker steel also helps to hold moisture and attract it as well.




The majority of new fuel storage tanks have floating roofs which rise and fall in relation to the volumes pumped in and out of the tanks to pipelines or filling racks and it reducees the amount of potential water condenstion entering the tanks to near zero percent as the the floating roof denies the atmospere surrounding the tank using the floating roof the opportunity to enter it as no vent piping is used to correct the need for the tank to allow air to enter to avoid a tank collapse due to a potential vauum created by the release of its contents or the potential of a tank rupture when filling the same tank in question.


Steel and concrete water tanks use atmosperic venting to allow for filling and release of water to the end user and typically have a 20 mesh screen barier with larger barriers in front of the final barrier to deny the entrance of spiders, flys, and other pests as well as small mammals seeking shelter or nesting sites.


The six laws of gasses, the flow of liquds in a pipe and fluid mechanics always simply dictate the ability of a Racor fuel filter water separator to work efficiently against the resistance of the "aquabloc" filter media which has a huge area of filtration due to the construction of the filter and affords maximum protection to an internal combustion engines fuel system.


Fuel filtration cost money to maintain and it will also save money and time with fuel problems maintaining fuel delivery supply systems.

The OEM's that install the Racor fuel, coolant, and oil filtration systems simply do so to protect thier machinery and its performance as the Racor design has always worked for them and will work for the end user if it is properly maintained.

Anyone adding a Racor water filter separator for gasoline or diesel use removes the affect
of water long before it has the opportunity to enter the injection pump in a diesel engines case to create rust and damage the injection pump which in itself is very expensive to rebuild.

The water in a gas engines case becomes one of settling in a fuel tank and eventually being sloshed around and pumped through the fuel line to the engine if it is not frozen in the fuel line as the gasoline is not recirculated using an overflow return system due to the volatility of this petroleum distillate.

The weakest link in chain applies here as the fuel is required to do work and it is the first and last thing that can be managed by the dispenser and the end user.

The Racor units I have mentioned are fully able to filter and allow fuel passage for even the smallest diesel engine as this model is rated filter fuel from the smallest diesel engine like a Hatz diesel or up to fifteen gallons per minute with the smaller Aquabloc filter media cartridge.

My entire point has been to eliminate the issue of dirty fuel and water in a diesel engine to save you all the aggravation of frozen fuel lines and poor fuel storage at the end users perspective. The idea is simply being able assure you with clean fuel and no water int he fuel so that one can feed cattle, and or clean your driveway without having to deal with fuel problems.

The fuel retailers are not going to do anything they are not required to do because it affects thier collective bottom line and net income and they follow the A.P.I. - American Petroleum Institute guidelines for fuel storage which does not amount to much in my opinion and in the case of light petroleum distillates like gasoline they fought the tank replacment rules adopted or replaced the underground tanks they have with double wall tanks and are required to replace them every 20 years or so.

Every inch of a diesel tractor becomes a heat sink and when the heat dissipates the moisture collects everywhere and your fuel system is no different because the indirect injection fuel delivery method is cost effective simple to maintain and unfortunately also will attract moisture when the remaining diesel fuel cools- which is why the tanks need to be topped off AFTER THE WORK IS DONE to reduce the potential of excess moisture entering the fuel system of either a gasoline engine or a diesel engine that is gravity fed.

Starving a gasline engine of fuel when work is completed is the ideal method of eliminating
the potential of moisture entering the fuel system as it is devoid of the gasoline.

The issue of moisture in a gasoline engine fuel system is referred to as the nozle effect which attracts the moisture in the carbuerated engine and the devil for walk behind snow blowers as the winter engines no longer have paper or oil bath sponge air filtration.
which adds to the amount of moisture entering the Carbuerator.

I have never desired to insult anyone on the forum here nor do I have the desire to do so;
MY only wish or supposed fantasy is to simply show the end user that I want him or her to be an informed consumer of information and the ability to solve problems with diesel fuel and gasoline that plague some of us.

The issue of forewarned is forearmed applies simply because the problem is stopped before it becomes a problem and I am not intentionally armchair quarterbacking a fuel issue or fantasizing about it.

 

[gerard]

Block heaters are not trouble free. They tend to go open on the coldest day of the winter and overheat on the hottest day of the summer.

?? Not sure what you mean by a "block heater." I think we're talking about an electric heating element that replaces on of the freeze plugs and heats the coolant only when plugged in. When not plugged in it can't do anything but sit there. You seem to be talking about the thermostat that opens and closes according to the coolant temp. If stuck "open," the engine runs cold. If stuck closed it prevents coolant from passing through the radiator and you will overheat. Not the same thing as a block heater though.

 

[JakeBrake]

?? Not sure what you mean by a "block heater." I think we're talking about an electric heating element that replaces on of the freeze plugs and heats the coolant only when plugged in. When not plugged in it can't do anything but sit there. You seem to be talking about the thermostat that opens and closes according to the coolant temp. If stuck "open," the engine runs cold. If stuck closed it prevents coolant from passing through the radiator and you will overheat. Not the same thing as a block heater though.

I am talking about the electric block heater. On large permanently installed standby diesel generator sets, the block heater and the battery charger are hardwired to commercial AC . The engine is started automatically by an automatic transfer switch when commercial AC fails or is turned off. Sorry if I was not clear on my original post.

 

[PHILIP8N]

As I was diesel mechanic involved with the daily maintenace and repair of both high and low horsepower diesel engines that required less than 15 gallons per minute of fuel for thier consumption they performed flawlessly.

The Racor 1000 filter model can be used on any diesel engine size as the fuel plumbing will carry fifteen gallons per minute with the 1/4" piping size so thats a non issue.

What engine did you work on that comsumed 15 gpm of diesel fuel???? Our Cat C32 V-12's only consume around 40 gph. Philip.