Geotextile fabric or Railroad ballast?

[ultrarunner]

When should woven fabric be used as opposed to non-woven?

 

[jdonovan]

When should woven fabric be used as opposed to non-woven?

Woven is generally used as a filter for when you want water to move through but keep soil on the other side. Generally we see it most in a layer behind retaining walls.

the non-woven looks like a giant piece of window screen with 1/2" to upwards of 3" holes depending on the type of material being placed on it. This allows the coarse rock to not move through the fabric.

I'm about 2 months from starting my personal driveway project and I'm planning on using the non-woven fabric.

 

[Ken45101]

the non-woven looks like a giant piece of window screen with 1/2" to upwards of 3" holes depending on the type of material being placed on it. This allows the coarse rock to not move through the fabric.

Kind of Swiss cheese like?

Wouldn't the big holes allow the wet clay to migrate through it?

Ken

 

[dmccarty]

For use on ROADS there are two fabrics I have seen. One is a mesh that is a bugger to cut. It quickly dulls a razor. The mesh looks what you would get if you tightly compressed insulation. This is what is under our driveway. The woven stuff was like a weaved plastic tarp. I think the mesh passes more water.

There is a web like fabric with big holes used to stabilize block retaining walls. You build up the block walls to a given height and lay in the web fabric which is attached to the blocks and rolled back into the soil side of the retaining wall. More soil is put on top of the fabric. The fabric is a tie back to keep the retaining wall from moving. This is not what you would want for a driveway.

I have seen road crews in NC using the mesh fabric which is what I have used on our driveway. I THINK I used it because it allowed water to pass but it has been 8-9 years since I had to figure out what I should use so my memory might be wrong.

Later,
Dan

 

[JB4310]

Found this video, real basic but there's links to many others.

YouTube - US Fabrics Stabilization Products!

JB.

 

[RadarTech]

Found this video, real basic but there's links to many others.

YouTube - US Fabrics Stabilization Products!

JB.

This is who I am planning on buying from....

 

[JB4310]

Yes and no..
The winter is when it really gets bad..
The snow stays for a period of time and melts off the upper banks.
Then it all saturates, and pumps up.

In one place I dug down 3 feet and found all kinds of gravel..
Another dug 3 with the tractor and then as far down as possible with a post hole digger and never found gravel. A relative told me that on the lower driveway the are spots where it took several dump truck loads to stabilize 20 foot sections.
Some of the banks keep falling down and filling the culverts.
It has flowed over and washed out edges...

If I can get a base, then maybe I can stop the pumping...

I don't have a the best picture of your situation, but you mention water pumping up in places.

If possible try and intercept that water with a perforated pipe in stone trap and let it drain to daylight down grade. Sounds like you may have that option.

You may still benifit from fabric in those problem areas, but like I mentioned and some of those videos show, the geo is imperative in flat grade wet areas where there is no option of gravity drainage. You want to try and divert, channel, control as much of the storm and ground water as possible.

JB.

 

[RadarTech]

I don't have a the best picture of your situation, but you mention water pumping up in places.

If possible try and intercept that water with a perforated pipe in stone trap and let it drain to daylight down grade. Sounds like you may have that option.

You may still benifit from fabric in those problem areas, but like I mentioned and some of those videos show, the geo is imperative in flat grade wet areas where there is no option of gravity drainage. You want to try and divert, channel, control as much of the storm and ground water as possible.

JB.

While I can not see it, a relative says there are spring heads on some of the areas...
That adds to it

 

[jdonovan]

Kind of Swiss cheese like?

Wouldn't the big holes allow the wet clay to migrate through it?

Yep kinda... think more like really big window screen.

The problem with roads on wetter ground is when wet the native soil can't support the load from the road above. The traffic then presses the rock into the soil. If the force is distributed by the geotextile then the rock can't get pressed into the soil.

Do note that the maker of the fabric generally specifies 6-12" of stone above the fabric so the traffic load can be distributed across the fabric.

 

[Ken45101]

Do note that the maker of the fabric generally specifies 6-12" of stone above the fabric so the traffic load can be distributed across the fabric.

Ouch! That means a 6-12" thick base before you can start to put smaller stuff on it. That would take one heck of a lot of stone.

With that size and thickness of the base rock, I wonder if the fabric is even necessary. When we widened our drive, there was a lot of soft clay and the #4 (2") crushed stone that the contractor put down disappeared pretty quickly. I pushed him for some #2 (3-4", which he didn't know existed) and 6" of that made a good solid base that locked together and held just fine.

I guess if you have a real marsh, then the fabric would still help.

Ken

 

[RadarTech]

Ouch! That means a 6-12" thick base before you can start to put smaller stuff on it. That would take one heck of a lot of stone.

With that size and thickness of the base rock, I wonder if the fabric is even necessary. When we widened our drive, there was a lot of soft clay and the #4 (2") crushed stone that the contractor put down disappeared pretty quickly. I pushed him for some #2 (3-4", which he didn't know existed) and 6" of that made a good solid base that locked together and held just fine.

I guess if you have a real marsh, then the fabric would still help.

Ken

Check this:
Driveway Fabric - US Fabrics

Add crusher run or crush and run only...
and 6in of that...

that is alot cheaper than 4-5 inch of ballast and then the crusher run on top....

J

 

[jdonovan]

Ouch! That means a 6-12" thick base before you can start to put smaller stuff on it. That would take one heck of a lot of stone.

No. That means READ THE DIRECTIONS for the fabric you are going to use.

The product I'm looking at using indicated no base rock is needed. The first lift can be 6" of 3/4 minus with fines.

So net-net no additional rock needed vs. a standard (for my area), and the hope that it should be much more resistant to being pushed into the base soil by heavy trucks(ups/fedex), or by passenger cars if the ground is wet.

 

[dmccarty]

Our driveway with fabric and at best 4 inches of ABC easily handled loaded cement trucks, log hauling trucks, construction traffic, including may loads of bricks and many, many trucks with ABC and 67 stone. I think those trucks were running 50-65,000 pounds.

The heaviest traffic was over a four to six month period.

Our road by comparison was tore to pieces by a logging operation that took three to five days. Some pretty bad ruts that the tractor fixed. :thumbsup:

The driveway was perfectly fine after the house was built which is why we did not add gravel.

Later,
Dan

 

[RadarTech]

Ok I'm tired and can't think.. What is abc again?

 

[dmccarty]

Ok I'm tired and can't think.. What is abc again?

The Alphabet?

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

ABC is a type of gravel in NC. It is what is used for road base. It has maybe 3 inch stone down to fines. 67 stone is mostly 2-3 inch rock but no fines. The fines/dust locks the stones into place. No stones and the rock can move around.

A B C D E F G....



I think ABC is 3,000 pound per yard if it is to DOT spec. DOT spec being the right amount of moisture, aka, not too wet, not too dry but just right. :laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[RadarTech]

The Alphabet?

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

ABC is a type of gravel in NC. It is what is used for road base. It has maybe 3 inch stone down to fines. 67 stone is mostly 2-3 inch rock but no fines. The fines/dust locks the stones into place. No stones and the rock can move around.

A B C D E F G....



I think ABC is 3,000 pound per yard if it is to DOT spec. DOT spec being the right amount of moisture, aka, not too wet, not too dry but just right. :laughing:

Later,
Dan

Thanks goldilocks!

Btw where are you in nc?

 

[The dirt doctor]

We only use fabric when the subsoil, or dirt, is pumping or soft. If you proof roll the subsoil with a loaded tandem or tri axle dump and have no movement, I wouldn't worry with the cloth. Also look into recycled asphalt or concrete products as opposed to a crusher run. Not millings, but a trench backfill or rc-6. Then can be a good bit cheaper. We pay $6 a ton. 8" of any of these materials should be sufficient.

 

[dmccarty]

Thanks goldilocks!

Btw where are you in nc?

I used to have golden, flowing hair. Sorta.

Now it is more of a foamy sea color.

Raleigh/Durham area of NC. Where the soil, cough, cough, is good for making bricks and pots. :laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

We only use fabric when the subsoil, or dirt, is pumping or soft. If you proof roll the subsoil with a loaded tandem or tri axle dump and have no movement, I wouldn't worry with the cloth. Also look into recycled asphalt or concrete products as opposed to a crusher run. Not millings, but a trench backfill or rc-6. Then can be a good bit cheaper. We pay $6 a ton. 8" of any of these materials should be sufficient.

Recycled asphalt or concrete would work but one has to look at the trucking cost. The last loads I had delivered cost me $65 an hour for the truck. Material was extra. If I need ABC the quarry is close enough that the truck can make 2 or maybe 3 loads per hour depending on how fast the quarry is moving that day. The only places that might have recycled material would be a two hour round trip.

I THINK the ABC cost me $10-12 a ton but that was a few years ago. I looked for my scale receipts but I could not find them the other night. I know they are some where.

Later,
Dan