I'm considering having a solar panel electrical system installed.

[LD1]

My intertie runs SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel. I highly recommend them or the Enphase, your choice. Not only do they optimize each panel but if I have a panel shaded by clouds it doesn't drag down the whole system. I think microinverters are the way to go.
I continuously monitor my system and so does SolarEdge, in fact if I have a panel failure (never has happened) they know before I do.

I agree, do it yourself. An intertie is a very simple install, put in the panels and an inverter and tie it to the grid. Microinverters are slightly more complex but nothing most thinking people can't handle.

Here's two screen shots of my intertie. SolarEdge1 is my monthly output so far this month. The second pic is an analysis of one day (Mar 17). So I also have a screen that shows all my panels and I can immediately see if something isn't correct.
I don't really have to check my system but it's nice to see what's going on. I like the SolarEdge because it's an MPPT. For those of you who don't know what MPPT is, let me explain.
MPPT stand for Maximum Power Point Tracking. It optimise's the power from the panels voltage and current and gives the best power that the panel can produce... constantly so you always get the most out of each panel.
On my off grid system I have separate chargers that do the same thing. Solar is making leaps and bounds, today's system is much more sophisticated than even two or three years ago and things will only get better.
So today I'm adding panels to my off grid system that are the same size as my 6 year old panels but more powerful.

Rob

I do like that second chart but one thing is a little confusing. It shows lifetime being 1.96 MWH, doesnt that only equal 1960 kwh???? cause that would only be ~$220 where I live, NOT $20k. So could you clarify that for me.

Also, I notice that it appears you are averaging ~600kwh/month with that system. For ME, that would only be ~$66/month. It would take over 25 YEARS to get to $20,000 to the positive.

OR...you mentioned in an earlier post that the grid-tie system you use should only cost ~$20k , so that would be a 25 year pacback. NOT good.

And you STILL never answered how you got this system for free????? I would love to know?

 

[Rob-D]

So I still dont understand how you got a 6.4k intertie for free Could you explain



The 12.7year payback was assuming 12 hours a day and 100% and only $6 a watt. So that 12.7years is BEST CASE scenerio.

Another thing that really hurts me is that my power coop does NOT do net metering. So if I make a surplus, I cannot "sell" back. So I will always have a power bill. Unless I have a HUGE system capable of providing enough juice for the high demand times, like when the heat is on, wife is cooking dinner, and drying a load of clothes all at the time the water heater kicks on. And if I have a system that big, that is a ton of wasted surplus that I am giving the power company for free.

I am NOT interested in off-grid.

I guess the way I see it, I'll hold out a bit longer. Things will eventually get cheaper to where I can afford them. Kinda like in the 1990's when PC's were becomming popular. An average system would easially cost you $2k and that was 20 years ago. NOW an average system well under a grand. And adjust that for inflation.........

I think alternative energy is going to be the same way. Another 10 years and I think it will be a whole lot more affordable.

I got a grant for $3.00 a watt with a cap of 20k. 6.44KW = $19,320.00. My cost was under $3.00 watt so I made money.

OK, let's say you install through a dealer a 4KW intertie. (6x4)-(6x4x.3) = $16.8
cost so you're saying it will take 12.7 years to payback at today's energy rates. How many KWH do you use a month? What size system are you thinking of installing?

As far as cheap, I guess things may get cheaper but now prices are pretty low with group buys under a buck.

Going back to a 4KW system, at under $3.00 (self installed) a watt the system would cost you 12K-30% =$8400.00. Maybe in five years that will be $5,500 but you lost 5 years of energy savings too.
If you don't have net metering than you should size your system to balance out your load so you have a relatively small excess of power.

You calculate a system for your average monthly usage not your maximum usage at one specific time so you have an error in your assessment.

Also, I wouldn't dismiss off grid. I make enough energy to not need my off grid system and batteries except in an emergency or when I have so much power the batts don't kick in(this way I sell more to the grid). They don't really hurt me just sitting there on surface charge. Since my intertie voids my bill it's the same as being off grid all the time and not have to rely on my batteries. This is of course the best of both worlds but it's something you can build up to over the years. People don't realize you can build a complete environment over several years like I did and not get buried with one big bill. Next for me is ddressing heat and then an electric car.

Rob

 

[LD1]

My intertie runs SolarEdge MPPT's on each panel. I highly recommend them or the Enphase, your choice. Not only do they optimize each panel but if I have a panel shaded by clouds it doesn't drag down the whole system. I think microinverters are the way to go.
I continuously monitor my system and so does SolarEdge, in fact if I have a panel failure (never has happened) they know before I do.

I agree, do it yourself. An intertie is a very simple install, put in the panels and an inverter and tie it to the grid. Microinverters are slightly more complex but nothing most thinking people can't handle.

Here's two screen shots of my intertie. SolarEdge1 is my monthly output so far this month. The second pic is an analysis of one day (Mar 17). So I also have a screen that shows all my panels and I can immediately see if something isn't correct.
I don't really have to check my system but it's nice to see what's going on. I like the SolarEdge because it's an MPPT. For those of you who don't know what MPPT is, let me explain.
MPPT stand for Maximum Power Point Tracking. It optimise's the power from the panels voltage and current and gives the best power that the panel can produce... constantly so you always get the most out of each panel.
On my off grid system I have separate chargers that do the same thing. Solar is making leaps and bounds, today's system is much more sophisticated than even two or three years ago and things will only get better.
So today I'm adding panels to my off grid system that are the same size as my 6 year old panels but more powerful.

Rob

I got a grant for $3.00 a watt with a cap of 20k. 6.44KW = $19,320.00. My cost was under $3.00 watt so I made money.

OK, let's say you install through a dealer a 4KW intertie. (6x4)-(6x4x.3) = $16.8
cost so you're saying it will take 12.7 years to payback at today's energy rates. How many KWH do you use a month? What size system are you thinking of installing?

As far as cheap, I guess things may get cheaper but now prices are pretty low with group buys under a buck.

Going back to a 4KW system, at under $3.00 (self installed) a watt the system would cost you 12K-30% =$8400.00. Maybe in five years that will be $5,500 but you lost 5 years of energy savings too.
If you don't have net metering than you should size your system to balance out your load so you have a relatively small excess of power.

You calculate a system for your average monthly usage not your maximum usage at one specific time so you have an error in your assessment.

Also, I wouldn't dismiss off grid. I make enough energy to not need my off grid system and batteries except in an emergency or when I have so much power the batts don't kick in(this way I sell more to the grid). They don't really hurt me just sitting there on surface charge. Since my intertie voids my bill it's the same as being off grid all the time and not have to rely on my batteries. This is of course the best of both worlds but it's something you can build up to over the years. People don't realize you can build a complete environment over several years like I did and not get buried with one big bill. Next for me is ddressing heat and then an electric car.

Rob

My heat is electric via heat pump. So I am not sure how I would size the system. Either way, without net metering, I aint going to get out of having a bill each month without a great deal more expense or changing my entire lifestyle.

Here are examples of what I mean by the above: In the summer, my average bill is ~1600kwh. In the winter it is ~2400kwh average. So if I size it @ 2000kwh, I am giving 400kwh away free in the summer and still paying for 400kwh in the winter.

But in reality, with a system that would make 2000kwh, I would have to owe MORE than 400kwh in the winter, and would still owe in the summer. Here are some examples: Due to my work schedule, we dont eat dinner til ~7:30. It is good and dark for at least half the year by then. So that is ALL on the grid. Plus, we shower at night, so the water heater would be ALL on grid, and on cloudy and rainy days is when I spend time in the shop consuming more electric when the panels arent producing the most.

So in reality, a system to generate 2000kwh/month, would probabally only give me 1000kwh and give the power company 1000kwh for free, and then they'd charge me for 1000kwh. I REALLY wish we had net metering because it would be SOOO much better. I am not really sure HOW big the system would need to be to get 2000kwh/month. You say your system is 6.4kw, and it only looks (of that chart is of your intertie), as if you are making ~600-700kwh/month. If that is the case, I'd need a ~20kw system.:confused2:

If I could get a grant for $3/watt, and could install it for less than that, absolutly I'd max it out. But at this time, with my situation, I just dont see the benefit from a cost standpoint without a net-metering power company.

And hey, maybe if I wait and the govt keeps pushing all these electric vehichles, that will really stress the grid/infrastructure, and maybe they will start offering even better rebates/credits on alternative energy.

 

[Rob-D]

I do like that second chart but one thing is a little confusing. It shows lifetime being 1.96 MWH, doesnt that only equal 1960 kwh???? cause that would only be ~$220 where I live, NOT $20k. So could you clarify that for me.

Also, I notice that it appears you are averaging ~600kwh/month with that system. For ME, that would only be ~$66/month. It would take over 25 YEARS to get to $20,000 to the positive.

OR...you mentioned in an earlier post that the grid-tie system you use should only cost ~$20k , so that would be a 25 year pacback. NOT good.

And you STILL never answered how you got this system for free????? I would love to know?

I've been on my off grid for several years, the intertie went in last year so it only has been up a few months. Since it went up I've generated a couple of megawatts. The total was for the worst months of theyear here. I won't know what my full potential is until the summer months

Here's a common mistake people make. They want to go on using exorbitant amounts of energy and then say, "Gee PV doesn't provide enough energy for me!"

How often do you run an electric clothes dryer? We have one but we don't use it except on the rarest of occasions. We have high speed dryers and our clothes dry in fifteen minutes, in fact most times I just put them on a drying rack. Our monthly electric bill is now down under 300KWH and we don't worry about skimping on electric. Yes, we have a gas stove that costs something like $30 to $40.00 every month or two but we do have an electric freezer. We keep the freezer in the coldest part of the house so it works less. We buy appliances that are EPEAT gold and we use all CFL's and LED lights. My laptop is EPEAT Gold too and I do CAD, CAM, CNC and EDA on it so I'm not suffering for power, it's a quad processor, just an energy efficient one, as is the TV.
I dumped the electric stove, they stink at cooking and we like to cook. I have a friend on intertie who uses one though. We have the Tulikivi soapstone fireplace with an oven and I like making breads and such in that, it also heats the house. We waste very little energy but we do live very well. This idea that you can't live well off the grid is simply wrong and when the power goes out up here all you hear are generators starting except for us and my closest neighbor is 1/4 mile away. When the power went out for a week last year I was the best off.

In the future I'm planning on building a root cellar for our crops and I'm working on special refrigeration units that work with pipes in my pond. My floors are already set up for solar. My boiler runs cold (110F) and my floors a warm because I use radiant heat.

I'd like to see a breakdown of you usage, I'm always puzzled by how much energy people use. You want to run a full electric house on PV alone? I don't think that's realistic. Also you'fe overlooking the extra benifits of renewables. The environmental impact the fact that I'm a zero carbon footprint and next year will be heating with renewables. Yes, I did a lot of the work myself but look at the substantial benefits. Who here wouldn't want no electric bill and no heating bill?
Home heating oil is now over $4.00 a gallon here. What's the payback for that?
Rob

 

[Rob-D]

And hey, maybe if I wait and the govt keeps pushing all these electric vehichles, that will really stress the grid/infrastructure, and maybe they will start offering even better rebates/credits on alternative energy.

Or maybe the very fragile grid will collapse and the only people with electric will be the ones producing it themselves.

Do some reading on how bad the grid is.

What on earth are you powering every month with those figures and what would you do if the grid did fail? Have you thought about that?

Rob

 

[Rob-D]

My personal goal for a retirement property has been off-grid, though a good argument has been made here for going with both types simultaneously. Adding a To Do entry to my RoundTuIts list to run numbers for both scenarios again.

I've seen turn-key whole house inter-tie systems here (Ontario, Canada) with paybacks less than 10 years.

Batteries can get more expensive for people who won't/can't do maintenance. Battery maintenance is simple, (adding distilled water, cleaning connections at a minimum) but should be factored into a battery budget scenario. Maintenance does make a difference - I get (knock wood) 10 years+ from car batteries, while the norm in this climate is approx. 5 years in automotive use.

Like anything, you can find battery deals if you spend the ergs looking. A bit of luck never hurts either, I met a guy 10 years ago that bought up new large industrial batteries for a deep discount. It turned out they were slightly out of spec for a utility contract. The "defect" was minor (something like a variance in case or terminal size), and had no impact on him using them.

Your utility bill will continue to ramp, and not just the kwh cost. We are careful with your electric (grid) useage now, but we usually have more "service" fees on a bill, than actual consumption.

I'm actually waiting for a line item on my Electric bill that goes something like "We couldn't think of a new story, so we are just going to stick you with this extra charge because we can !".

For those of us now enjoying Smart Metering, remember, you pretty much have lost all control of your bill. With flat rate meters, you could always get them reconciled if there was a billing error. With Smart Meters, if the billing computer decides that 96% of your consumption was during peak time, good luck fighting that one.

There are many factors to consider in selecting a system, just wanted to toss my 2 cents into the pot.

Rgds, D.

Good points Dave.

 

[EHR]

I have posted before about my home. I have about 2500 sq ft of semi earthbermed SIP construction home. When go through about 180kw/month. It has a 1.2kw array that is gridtied with battery backup in case of grid failure. Additionally we have a solar dhw system. Total expense before rebates etc was about $27k.We paid in the end about 2/3s of that.

The last few days we are close to 7 kw/day. I built a very energy concious home but the design has paid for itself. The solar will take time but should pay for itself as well.
We are just outside of Manchester, NH.

 

[LD1]

Or maybe the very fragile grid will collapse and the only people with electric will be the ones producing it themselves.

Do some reading on how bad the grid is.

What on earth are you powering every month with those figures and what would you do if the grid did fail? Have you thought about that?

Rob

The whole point is....I dont want to change my lifestyle. As long as power is being sold, I will consume. IF I could drastically change my lifestyle and get to ~300kwh bills, that would be less than $40/month and for that, why would I even want solar. Whats $40/month

We heat with electric (heat pump), we run the AC in the summer. I like 70 degrees and no warmer. Also have outside lights, pond pumps, electric stove, electric dryer, hot water. The hot water heater alone consumes ~350-400kwh/month. Not to mention the time spent in the 30x50 garage tinkering, running the AC out there in the summer, welding things, 240v air compressor running, etc.

I do use CFL though:thumbsup:

My lowest bills ever were only in the 800kwh range. But that was before the garage was built, pont pumps, outside lights, and before the little one was born. And I was a lot more savy about power consumption then. I didnt run the heat/ac as much, took really short showers, always turned things off, etc. Now, I'd rather just pony up than hastle with trying to save a bit. I figure the garage/pond/outside lights have added 500kwh alone. So if I revert to how I lived 5 years ago, My bills would still be ~1300 in the summer. Only a 500-600kwh savings. And for me, I'd rather pay the extra $60 or so.

And another note, my power is also very reliable. In 6 years, other than an occasional flicker when a big storm rolls through, the ONLY outage was when winds from IKE came through in 2008 and we were out only 4 hours. IF/WHEN the grid fails, I might go alternative, but until then, the COP is just too high for me to justifty at the moment. And I also dont know if I am going to live in my current house forever. I dont want to spend a fortune on a 15 year payback setup and then move in 10-11 years.

 

[LD1]

I have been doing some more research on this whole solar thing. Boy I just wish I could make it work.

I seen some websites that were selling "kits" like solarelectricsupply.com kits were in the 4.8kwh-5.2kwh range and ~$13k. That didnt seem too bad. A little under $3/watt.

What worries me Rob-D (I know we arent in price season yet) is that your 6.4kwh system is only producing ~700kwh/month. That would still take ~10 years to payback, IF a 5kwh system made that much.

And I also thought I was in luck looking at this Generating Your Own Electricity: Net Metering - PUCO

I know I called them a few years ago (my power company) and they said they DONT do net metering. Then ....I got to the bottom and it said that rural coop's dont have to offer it If it was as simple as making the meter "spin" backwards, I think I'd be alright. Because they wouldnt have a way to really track it. Just a month by month basis, but not daily. That is until they installed one of these new digital "smart meters" last year:confused2:

 

[Rob-D]

The whole point is....I dont want to change my lifestyle. As long as power is being sold, I will consume. IF I could drastically change my lifestyle and get to ~300kwh bills, that would be less than $40/month and for that, why would I even want solar. Whats $40/month

LD1,
I'm not trying to knock you so don't look at this as a bias toward you but for me solar is more than free electricity, paybacks, etc. We live in a world with dwindling power, regardless how long it takes for our resources to deplete that time will come, we live in a world where world pollution, smog, etc. are making people sick, that's not my personal view it's the WHO (World Health Org.). We justify wars to defend the safety of our loved ones and to make a better future for those who will come after us so why aren't we defending the environment that life can not exist without?
So saying that if they sell it I'll buy it because I can afford it, negates all the positive actions we can take to sustain this planet for those who come after us. We use 1/4 of the worlds resources and I think this is wrong, I think, regardless of how much we can afford, and I very likely can afford more than most of you, that we have to take a step back, to look at the world we live in and think about those who will occupy this planet after us. So I think it's my responsibility to do everything I can to make my footprint on this planet as light as possible, to recycle what I use, to compost and to consume as little energy as possible.
Maybe there will be a time when we have learned how to harness all the energy we will ever need without affecting this planet but that time is not here and it may never be here.
My low consumption is to me an obligation to society, it's not just saving and return on my investment, I already had that long before I put in solar.

Again, I'm not singling you out I'm giving you my justification for what I do.

Rob