So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[DarkBlack]

Loren, I thought You had posted earlier that you were a school teacher. Maybe I remember that wrong? I was hoping it was true so you could save me the time of laying everything out.

Lets look at what I posted earlier: "Energy can not be created or destroyed". It's a physics idea that is pretty much undisputed to this day.
To overlook this is plain denial.

Let's pretend that for 1 second, we believe your assertion the US could put in enough windmills to reliably generate, " 4 million megawatts". That would steal more than 4 million megawatts of energy from the Earth's winds ( yes proven physics again) which shape our planet's well being as you know it. And yes the "climate". Try looking up "conservation of energy".

Sorry, there's no free lunch!

For a poster who's kept awake at night worrying about fossil fuel use, that had part of it's energy conversion done years ago, you seem to pretty eager to mess with the current winds, which can/will have a much greater impact on the "climate" you so worry about.

 

[Tollster]

Loren, I thought You had posted earlier that you were a school teacher. Maybe I remember that wrong? I was hoping it was true so you could save me the time of laying everything out.

Lets look at what I posted earlier: "Energy can not be created or destroyed". It's a physics idea that is pretty much undisputed to this day.
To overlook this is plain denial.

Let's pretend that for 1 second, we believe your assertion the US could put in enough windmills to reliably generate, " 4 million megawatts". That would steal more than 4 million megawatts of energy from the Earth's winds ( yes proven physics again) which shape our planet's well being as you know it. And yes the "climate". Try looking up "conservation of energy".

Sorry, there's no free lunch!

For a poster who's kept awake at night worrying about fossil fuel use, that had part of it's energy conversion done years ago, you seem to pretty eager to mess with the current winds, which can/will have a much greater impact on the "climate" you so worry about.

everything boils down to the lesser of two evils... something that was not considered years ago. But please elaborate on that undisputed theory and how it relates to solar panels...

 

[Loren49]

Loren, I thought You had posted earlier that you were a school teacher. Maybe I remember that wrong? I was hoping it was true so you could save me the time of laying everything out.

I taught HS Math for 16 years....so are you or aren't you laying everything out???? Seems irrelevant to the discussion

Lets look at what I posted earlier: "Energy can not be created or destroyed". It's a physics idea that is pretty much undisputed to this day.
To overlook this is plain denial.

There is nothing in my post to suggest that the electricity produced was by magic. Don't make up what I said or implied.

Let's pretend that for 1 second, we believe your assertion the US could put in enough windmills to reliably generate, " 4 million megawatts". That would steal more than 4 million megawatts of energy from the Earth's winds ( yes proven physics again) which shape our planet's well being as you know it. And yes the "climate". Try looking up "conservation of energy".

I referenced an report by NPR: Offshore wind energy faces setbacks in Great Lakes | WRVO Public Media. I used their research to support my example. You should try referenced information sometime. The question is "how do you support the claim that the amount of wind energy converted to electricity will in any significant way have a negative effect on earth's climate. You made it up. The reports I posted suggest very localized and minor effects and not clearly positive or negative. There are well documented effects of all methods of electrical production.

Sorry, there's no free lunch!

This is a diversion from your inability or unwillingness to support your claim with referenced information. Your assertion that I in anyway claimed this is not supported by fact.


For a poster who's kept awake at night worrying about fossil fuel use, that had part of it's energy conversion done years ago, you seem to pretty eager to mess with the current winds, which can/will have a much greater impact on the "climate" you so worry about.

You make condescending comments. You repeat an opinion and have yet to support the claim of any significant negative effect on the earth's climate.

A copy of previous reference:
Any references to support this:

What evidence that the winds on earth are being or could be blocked by any significant amount.

This article is not gloom and doom: Wind Power Found to Affect Local Climate - Scientific American
"What's the right comparison?
So how should we understand these results? Keith and colleagues compared the climate changes caused by wind turbines with the climate changes that would have been caused by fossil fuel burned to make the same amount of electricity. But because carbon dioxide lasts for centuries or millennia in the atmosphere (unless we suck it out somehow), it's hard to know over how many years to calculate the avoided carbon dioxide emissions. For the 20-year life of the turbines? Or for the few hundred years of supply of fossil fuels that could be burnt?

Now that the impacts of wind turbines on climate are becoming better understood, more comprehensive studies of complete future energy systems are needed. We need to ask, what combination of wind power, solar power, nuclear power and fossil fuel power, together with what combination of measures to remove carbon from the atmosphere, will result in the lowest overall environmental and social costs."


Do you have similar concerns for solar panels which transform solar energy to electricity and therefore rod the earth's surface of energy that clearly effects earth's winds.

Wind is caused by differences in atmospheric pressure created, in large part, by the unequal heating of the earth's surface by the sun. Air moves from a region of higher pressure to one of lower pressure and this movement is wind.
HowStuffWorks "Wind"
science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/meteorological.../wind-info1.htm


Your gloom and doom and unsupported claims don't help your argument. Please try to refrain from making unsupported claims concerning your fictional view concerning what I feel about things or do at night. In general I reference material. Challenge the material, not me. My opinion is simply that and my vocation(s) have nothing to do with this discussion. Your opinion seems clear so how about moving on or using referenced research.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

My curiosity got the best of me on this rainy afternoon so I spent a little time trying to see what was out there in cyber space.

The influence of large-scale wind power on global climate

Implications
The climatic impact of wind power is currently negligible in comparison with other anthropogenic climate forcings. Suppose that use of wind power were to grow 100-fold to 2 TW, which is somewhat beyond the largest quantity envisaged for the next half century by recent studies (20, 21) but only ≈1/10th of the global electricity demand in 2100 under fossil-intensive emissions scenarios (22). At an atmospheric efficiency of 50%, 2 TW of wind power corresponds to a δP of 4 TW, which is similar to the smallest δP used here. Our results suggest that the resulting peak changes in seasonal mean temperature might be ≈0.5 K, with RMS changes approximately one order of magnitude smaller and near-zero change in global mean temperature (using the method shown in Fig. 3A with winter means produces maximum values of ≈0.1KTW-1, see also the δC D = 0.0006 points of Fig. 4 D and E ). These climatic changes are detectable above background climatic variability in model runs of a few decades in duration, but they might remain too small to detect in the presence of other anthropogenic change and natural climate variability.

A single wind turbine has an infinitesimal direct effect on global climate, but it also makes an infinitesimal indirect contribution to reducing climate change by slowing the growth of atmospheric CO2. The ratio of direct to indirect effects is relevant to decisions about implementing wind power at any scale if the objective is to mitigate climate change.

The direct impact of wind power is immediate, whereas the indirect climatic benefit grows from zero with time as electricity from wind reduces CO2 emissions and slows the growth of concentrations. A comparison of the effects depends, among other factors, on (i) how impacts at different times and locations are aggregated, (ii) the effectiveness of electricity from wind in reducing CO2 emissions, and (iii) the baseline CO2 emission profile.

The direct climatic changes that are due to wind power may be beneficial because they can act to reduce, rather than increase, aggregate climate impacts. For example, assume that impacts are proportional to the local squared-deviation of temperature from preindustrial means and that a small climate change due to wind power with the pattern of response shown in Fig. 3A is superimposed on a much larger CO2-induced warming. In this case, the polar cooling and low-latitude warming from wind power tends to reduce aggregate impacts due to CO2-induced warming, which has the opposite pole-to-equator gradient, even though the average temperature change due to wind power is zero.

Our analysis suggests that the climatic impacts of wind power may be nonnegligible, but they do not allow a detailed quantitative evaluation of the climatic changes induced by extraction of wind power. Further research is warranted on the local effects of current wind farms on surface climate and boundary-layer meteorology, as well as on the development of better parameterizations of wind farms in large-scale models. Last, it may be comparatively easy to reduce the climatic impacts of wind turbines. Preliminary analysis suggests that turbine designs could be modified to increase the atmospheric efficiency (C P/C D) by several tens of percent and reduce the generation of turbulence by several fold, both of which could be done economically. Additional mitigation of impact might be achieved by siting wind farms such that their effects partially cancel and by tailoring the interaction of turbines with the local topography to minimize the added drag.

Acknowledgments
We thank Kerry Emanuel, Sten Frandsen, Neil Kelly, Daniel Kirk-Davidoff, Somnath Baidya Roy, and three anonymous referees for their comments and assistance. We also thank NCAR and GFDL for computational support. This work was supported by British Petroleum, the Electric Power Research Institute, the Ford Foundation, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, the National Science Foundation, and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

------
This is a small portion of the article post by the National Academy of Scientists of the USA


Wind power not enough to affect global climate, researchers find -- ScienceDaily

Wind power not enough to affect global climate, researchers find
Date:
September 10, 2012
Source:
DOE/Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory
Summary:
Though there is enough power in the earth's winds to be a primary source of near-zero emission electric power for the world, large-scale high altitude wind power generation is unlikely to substantially affect climate, according to new research.

How the 'windfarms increase climate change' myth was born | Leo Hickman | Environment | theguardian.com

How the 'windfarms increase climate change' myth was born
University of Illinois windfarm researcher responds to how his paper was reported in the media and on the internet

---------
Do we rely on scientific investigation or individuals opinion and beliefs?

Loren

 

[ultrarunner]

I was told about the same report... several of my friends work at the Lab as do spouses of my coworkers.

Here is another way to look at it...

We tractor folks like to be independant and self sufficient for the most part.

I'm old enough to remember the chaos back in the 70's when folks had to wait hours or days to buy 10 gallons of fuel if it was even available.

I see nothing wrong with being diversified when it comes to transportation options...

Why not have a Diesel that can run on vegetable oil as well as a car you can refuel from home grown solar?

Heck, I have a friend with a steam car... all he needs is water and fire to tool down the road...

Few of us can make our own gasoline... many more can produce electricity so why not if it floats your boat?

 

[houstonscott]

I was told about the same report... several of my friends work at the Lab as do spouses of my coworkers. Here is another way to look at it... We tractor folks like to be independant and self sufficient for the most part. I'm old enough to remember the chaos back in the 70's when folks had to wait hours or days to buy 10 gallons of fuel if it was even available. I see nothing wrong with being diversified when it comes to transportation options... Why not have a Diesel that can run on vegetable oil as well as a car you can refuel from home grown solar? Heck, I have a friend with a steam car... all he needs is water and fire to tool down the road... Few of us can make our own gasoline... many more can produce electricity so why not if it floats your boat?

To be independent from the regulation of big oppressive progressive government is a motive for wind, solar and bio diesel, to produce energy. HS

 

[ultrarunner]

I agree and glad we do have alternatives.

Now the one that gets me is I have all the seasoned split oak and an EPA Cat wood stove installed with permit that I am forbidden from using on cold winter nights.

Kind of crazy because the previous homeowner that installed it received a tax credit for doing so!

 

[Redneck in training]

To be independent from the regulation of big oppressive progressive government is a motive for wind, solar and bio diesel, to produce energy. HS

When you get tired of the opressive governement move to Somalia. Since there is no government it must be good country to live in.

 

[Oaktree]

When you get tired of the opressive governement move to Somalia. Since there is no government it must be good country to live in.

One would hope there's some sort of middle ground.

 

[houstonscott]

When you get tired of the opressive governement move to Somalia. Since there is no government it must be good country to live in.

Maybe you should go home, where you belong. HS