/pine
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2009
- Messages
- 15,763
Craftsmen Who Work With Their Hands
- Thread starter TxDoc
- Start date
- Views: 6906
2LaneCruzer
Epic Contributor
Thanks for that JL; somewhat unexpectedly, I found that to be quite moving.
nybirdman
Super Member
Instead of paying for years of college;I served a five year apprenticeship in the UA Pipefitters and Plumbers.This was totally paid for by the union.
Worked for 42 years;from two man school jobs to nuclear plants with 3,000 fitters.Learned to weld on the job and eventually became a certified welder.
I certainly have not regrets,great pension and full benefits.
I think the country needs to push for more trades people,college is no guarantee of a good paying job.
New York state is even worse;requireing a Regents diploma for all graduates,crazey all kids are going to college.I received a Regents diploma but several of my classmates that didn't ended up as very successful business men and women.
Worked for 42 years;from two man school jobs to nuclear plants with 3,000 fitters.Learned to weld on the job and eventually became a certified welder.
I certainly have not regrets,great pension and full benefits.
I think the country needs to push for more trades people,college is no guarantee of a good paying job.
New York state is even worse;requireing a Regents diploma for all graduates,crazey all kids are going to college.I received a Regents diploma but several of my classmates that didn't ended up as very successful business men and women.
I don't know a ton about an automotive tech salary but I would still think it would be very rare for a tech at the dealer to be making $80,000. At least it seems like from reading online that a lot of techs are making more in the $30-$40,000 range. I think more people would want to be automotive techs if they thought they could make $80,0000.
bumperm
Veteran Member
Education? I left home at 16, didn't even finish high school. There were four siblings,
no father, no welfare back then, and not a lot of choices to my immature mind other than working low paying jobs until I was old enough to sign a declaration of intent to become a citizen so I could enlist in the Navy. . . . over the next 8 years I got educated. What I did have was work ethic, learned that from a fervent desire to afford food and shelter. Being somewhat intelligent helped.
I'm retired now, pushing 70, kids run the small company (25 employees) I founded 35 years ago. I guess I'm proof one can achieve a degree of success without a formal education. I do, however, miss not having had the opportunity to go to college, as I think it would have provided a broader foundation and introduced those things I was unable to glean on my own. I was not a good roll model, as neither of my sons sought higher education, even though dad would have picked up the tab. Oh well.
In spite of what OB might say about the disparity between the haves and have nots, there has always been the opportunity to get ahead if one is willing to work hard. Working smart helps too.
bumper
no father, no welfare back then, and not a lot of choices to my immature mind other than working low paying jobs until I was old enough to sign a declaration of intent to become a citizen so I could enlist in the Navy. . . . over the next 8 years I got educated. What I did have was work ethic, learned that from a fervent desire to afford food and shelter. Being somewhat intelligent helped.
I'm retired now, pushing 70, kids run the small company (25 employees) I founded 35 years ago. I guess I'm proof one can achieve a degree of success without a formal education. I do, however, miss not having had the opportunity to go to college, as I think it would have provided a broader foundation and introduced those things I was unable to glean on my own. I was not a good roll model, as neither of my sons sought higher education, even though dad would have picked up the tab. Oh well.
In spite of what OB might say about the disparity between the haves and have nots, there has always been the opportunity to get ahead if one is willing to work hard. Working smart helps too.
bumper
sld
Veteran Member
Good thread.
I have a college degree and work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Taking after my dad, I try to do everything myself. Fix things instead of replace, change oil, maintain equipment, etc... I just can't see paying somebody to do these tasks.
There is a big push in my industry to use engineers from India because they are dirt cheap. Most of them are very computer savvy but not so much mechanically. They literally will not know the difference in coarse and fine threads...or even how to size a hole for a fastener.
My buddies and I think that we are more mechanical because we worked on stuff as kids. Bikes, cars, etc....These Indians never did that and it seems to make a difference.
I like my job and the pay but I am always in awe to see a true craftsman at work.
I have a college degree and work as an engineer in the aerospace industry. Taking after my dad, I try to do everything myself. Fix things instead of replace, change oil, maintain equipment, etc... I just can't see paying somebody to do these tasks.
There is a big push in my industry to use engineers from India because they are dirt cheap. Most of them are very computer savvy but not so much mechanically. They literally will not know the difference in coarse and fine threads...or even how to size a hole for a fastener.
My buddies and I think that we are more mechanical because we worked on stuff as kids. Bikes, cars, etc....These Indians never did that and it seems to make a difference.
I like my job and the pay but I am always in awe to see a true craftsman at work.
oldballs
Elite Member
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2009
- Messages
- 4,536
- Location
- Kansas...USA
- Tractor
- Kubota B2620 , Case 448 , Kubota B2650
One of the most impressive things that I've ever witnessed is a professional bricklayer at work. That's a thing of beauty in my mind.
jaotguy
Veteran Member
the government rules and regulations have stopped a lot of "would be" entrepreneurs from starting new businesses ... you have to have a license from the "school of trades" ( a provincial government set up kangaroo club of non trades bean counters).... a money grab , just pay the new yearly fees ...
Plus the provincial business license permit .....
( I'm not saying certification is bad .... just that they are charging an additional large yearly fee to be able to run a business in Ontario ... )
even house painters , patio stone layers , street sweepers , shoe shine boys .... ridiculous money grab !!!!!
being able to work with your hands, exercises different parts of your brain .... and as the saying goes , use it or lose it...
and the more "flexible" , limber and exercised the brain is , the better it works ( as well as the body ) .....
had one boss that could computer program anything you could imagine , but couldn't change a flat tire ...
had a friend that could rebuild and blue print race car engines , but couldn't change a light bulb or fuse ...
neither was stupid , but had different narrow talents ....
I grew up without a lot of cash , if you wanted something , you built it or repaired someone's throw away.... learned a lot along the way ..., and still learning today ....
Plus the provincial business license permit .....
( I'm not saying certification is bad .... just that they are charging an additional large yearly fee to be able to run a business in Ontario ... )
even house painters , patio stone layers , street sweepers , shoe shine boys .... ridiculous money grab !!!!!
being able to work with your hands, exercises different parts of your brain .... and as the saying goes , use it or lose it...
and the more "flexible" , limber and exercised the brain is , the better it works ( as well as the body ) .....
had one boss that could computer program anything you could imagine , but couldn't change a flat tire ...
had a friend that could rebuild and blue print race car engines , but couldn't change a light bulb or fuse ...
neither was stupid , but had different narrow talents ....
I grew up without a lot of cash , if you wanted something , you built it or repaired someone's throw away.... learned a lot along the way ..., and still learning today ....
dave1949
Super Star Member
Maine has (MAP) Maine Apprenticeship Program, a state supported collaboration between employers, students, unions & trade groups.
Maine Apprenticeship Program | Maine CareerCenter
There is quite list of skilled trades the program will cover.
http://maine.gov/labor/careerctr/docs/me_list.pdf
They say apprenticeship positions go begging in Maine. So, somehow the program is not delivering the desired results.
I think some improvement is needed in how schools function in the career development area, child labor laws need some exceptions perhaps, and employers need to, and be enabled to, take on more of a "grow your own" approach in some cases. By and large people will go where opportunity leads them. When that fails, either the opportunity, the promotion of the opportunity, or the leadership is lacking.
I say this as a person who began their own career as a HS Industrial arts teacher in the mid-70's when shop class was already a somewhat of a dumping ground and refuge for those who needed credits and couldn't earn them in math and science classes. Joint vocational schools were coming into their own at that time which de-emphasized less career-oriented Industrial Arts programs.
Money flowed to the vocational schools and away from shop classes in the regular schools. It took a while for vocational schools to overcome the stigma attached to them in the early days that functioned as a disincentive for talented students. The idea of "Why would you be in a vocational school? You can attend college", was and may still be pretty common.
As for the regular shop classes, now that vocational schools siphoned off the serious pre-craftsmen, you won't find many bright and talented kids who will sign-up for an elective class when they know they will be with the skaters, behavior challenged, and learning disabled. Why would they? They can attend college prep classes and avoid the undesirable elements in their prison, er - school. :laughing:
Beyond the social aspects, what or how much can a teacher do for a student reading at Grade 12+ level in a high school classroom dominated by those reading at Grade 7 level? You can bore them to death, that's what. I know there is an emphasis on individualized learning now, but that has practical limits.
I think we should provide a better path explicitly designed for skilled trade development. If a student is 16-years-old, has completed the 10th grade, can pass a test demonstrating basic abilities in math, science, and English, and expresses an interest in an apprenticeship program, then turn 'em loose to go do what they want full-time.
Of course, that needs some structure. Such as a summer internship between the 10th and 11th grade to test the waters and be accepted or rejected by an eventual employer who is willing and able to provide a two year paying work-study/apprenticeship program. If the student doesn't succeed at that, put them back in regular school--now there is motivation. :laughing:
For those who do succeed, traditional school is behind them and their focus is on developing skills while earning a growing paycheck. They would still have classroom studies as needed for their trade, but everybody in the room would be there for the same reasons and actually know why. Students could still attain a HS diploma, and a reasonably well-rounded education, by using on-line courses. Their regular high school could pay for that over an available window of say four years or so.
Maine Apprenticeship Program | Maine CareerCenter
There is quite list of skilled trades the program will cover.
http://maine.gov/labor/careerctr/docs/me_list.pdf
They say apprenticeship positions go begging in Maine. So, somehow the program is not delivering the desired results.
I think some improvement is needed in how schools function in the career development area, child labor laws need some exceptions perhaps, and employers need to, and be enabled to, take on more of a "grow your own" approach in some cases. By and large people will go where opportunity leads them. When that fails, either the opportunity, the promotion of the opportunity, or the leadership is lacking.
I say this as a person who began their own career as a HS Industrial arts teacher in the mid-70's when shop class was already a somewhat of a dumping ground and refuge for those who needed credits and couldn't earn them in math and science classes. Joint vocational schools were coming into their own at that time which de-emphasized less career-oriented Industrial Arts programs.
Money flowed to the vocational schools and away from shop classes in the regular schools. It took a while for vocational schools to overcome the stigma attached to them in the early days that functioned as a disincentive for talented students. The idea of "Why would you be in a vocational school? You can attend college", was and may still be pretty common.
As for the regular shop classes, now that vocational schools siphoned off the serious pre-craftsmen, you won't find many bright and talented kids who will sign-up for an elective class when they know they will be with the skaters, behavior challenged, and learning disabled. Why would they? They can attend college prep classes and avoid the undesirable elements in their prison, er - school. :laughing:
Beyond the social aspects, what or how much can a teacher do for a student reading at Grade 12+ level in a high school classroom dominated by those reading at Grade 7 level? You can bore them to death, that's what. I know there is an emphasis on individualized learning now, but that has practical limits.
I think we should provide a better path explicitly designed for skilled trade development. If a student is 16-years-old, has completed the 10th grade, can pass a test demonstrating basic abilities in math, science, and English, and expresses an interest in an apprenticeship program, then turn 'em loose to go do what they want full-time.
Of course, that needs some structure. Such as a summer internship between the 10th and 11th grade to test the waters and be accepted or rejected by an eventual employer who is willing and able to provide a two year paying work-study/apprenticeship program. If the student doesn't succeed at that, put them back in regular school--now there is motivation. :laughing:
For those who do succeed, traditional school is behind them and their focus is on developing skills while earning a growing paycheck. They would still have classroom studies as needed for their trade, but everybody in the room would be there for the same reasons and actually know why. Students could still attain a HS diploma, and a reasonably well-rounded education, by using on-line courses. Their regular high school could pay for that over an available window of say four years or so.
k0ua
Epic Contributor
One of the biggest education days of my life was when my brother in law and father in law and I attempted to lay concrete blocks for the BIL's new shop. We work most of the day on it with "limited" results. The next door neighbor was a pro mason, and he finally got tired of watching us and came over and said if you guys will keep the mud mixed and the blocks moving to him he would lay the block.. In about 2 hours after he tore our out work, he laid 10 times the blocks, and they were joined correctly. He worked our butts off just mixing mud and keeping him going. He taught me how to "butter" blocks, and how to cut them and how our mortar was way to dry!. Anyway I learned a lot and got to watch a man that knew what he was doing work. It was a great learning experience.
300UGUY
Super Member
I don't see the public schools getting the funding to run vocational programs at that level, and industry seems to want eveything paid for by taxpayers.
300UGUY
Super Member
As long as there are no barriers to entry ( some sort of license ) a lot of these jobs will never pay much.
ultrarunner
Epic Contributor
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2004
- Messages
- 29,061
- Tractor
- Cat D3, Deere 110 TLB, Kubota BX23 and L3800 and RTV900 with restored 1948 Deere M, 1949 Farmall Cub, 1953 Ford Jubliee and 1957 Ford 740 Row Crop, Craftsman Mower, Deere 350C Dozer 50 assorted vehicles from 1905 to 2006
Those that can fix things will always have a leg up... those that can create have two legs up...
Part of the problem is "We" don't fix let alone build in most homes and you are right... there is no one left in the family or even neighbors to pass along the skills.
I've scored a lot of useful appliances that were tossed for something as simple as the remote no longer works and the reason turned out to be the batteries were in backwards.
I went the trade route in Tool and Die and Certified Welder and then on to get my engineering degree.
Outside the shop floor... tradespeople seldom get the recognition for their talents... at least having the degree took care of that.
I'm very proud of my Goddaughter... even at a young age of 5 she always wanted to fix things and asked for tools as presents... sadly, this is slowly diminishing as she gets older.
For her 8th birthday I put together an assortment of tools in a carry bag... good things like Klein Screwdrivers and such...
You should have seen the dozen or so little girls at her party... all gravitated to the tools and left the made in China plastic behind...
Biggest problem is her Dad is always using her tools and not putting them back!
A good plumber always has work as does a person that is handy and off-shoring ain't never going to happen here.
Part of the problem is "We" don't fix let alone build in most homes and you are right... there is no one left in the family or even neighbors to pass along the skills.
I've scored a lot of useful appliances that were tossed for something as simple as the remote no longer works and the reason turned out to be the batteries were in backwards.
I went the trade route in Tool and Die and Certified Welder and then on to get my engineering degree.
Outside the shop floor... tradespeople seldom get the recognition for their talents... at least having the degree took care of that.
I'm very proud of my Goddaughter... even at a young age of 5 she always wanted to fix things and asked for tools as presents... sadly, this is slowly diminishing as she gets older.
For her 8th birthday I put together an assortment of tools in a carry bag... good things like Klein Screwdrivers and such...
You should have seen the dozen or so little girls at her party... all gravitated to the tools and left the made in China plastic behind...
Biggest problem is her Dad is always using her tools and not putting them back!
A good plumber always has work as does a person that is handy and off-shoring ain't never going to happen here.
dave1949
Super Star Member
I'm not advocating the public schools running the program. I really don't believe public schools should be training camps for industry, it is unworkable. The lag-time between demand and supply is too long, it's too cumbersome with too many levels and fingers in the pie for the rate at which skill needs change these days.
Give kids the basic skills and let the people who need more pay for it. I think the result would be better, and in the end you pay school taxes (a lot for not much result currently IMO), or you pay more for products. You pay either way. I gotta believe you would pay less if more job training was accomplished by employers.
doxford jim
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 1,006
- Location
- British Columbia, Canada
- Tractor
- 1959 MF-65 sold, 2007 Jinma 554 diesel.
I trained as a marine engineer (4/12 years apprenticeship) and continued to go to sea for many years (eventually becoming C/E) - travelling the world. In between I attended university (didn't finish), emigrated. worked as millwright and as a stationary engineer and always found employment when needed.
Retired in 2005 and have since then rebuilt front of garage (better than previous), built large double carport, installed roofing over outside deck, rebuilt a couple of diesel engines etc. - along with many other jobs inside the house.
Really cannot complain as I have managed to do pretty much what I wanted to do. Didn't get rich but didn't find the need to - was just happy with what I was doing.
Having a grounding and experience in a trade, a person will always find work. Experience brings questions and answers to a lot of life's problems though we probably don't realize at the time. Being able to reason and work out problems is a big asset - most genuine trades people have a good record regarding this.
Unfortunately, too many people fall by the wayside as young adults and good intentions go out the window.
Retired in 2005 and have since then rebuilt front of garage (better than previous), built large double carport, installed roofing over outside deck, rebuilt a couple of diesel engines etc. - along with many other jobs inside the house.
Really cannot complain as I have managed to do pretty much what I wanted to do. Didn't get rich but didn't find the need to - was just happy with what I was doing.
Having a grounding and experience in a trade, a person will always find work. Experience brings questions and answers to a lot of life's problems though we probably don't realize at the time. Being able to reason and work out problems is a big asset - most genuine trades people have a good record regarding this.
Unfortunately, too many people fall by the wayside as young adults and good intentions go out the window.
apprenticeships are only as good as the company teaching them, I was lucky the location that my training was done was complete. The leaders put the education ahead of the daily production. I was not treated as a second class citizen by the experienced. All were more then willing to instruct and willing to share experience. As a result today I am still contacted about difficult situations. Unfortunately my trade was the design and building of injection molds. Now that most everything is made in China demand for my knowledge is lacking.
Most of what I do now is figure out how to fix the junk imported from China. Companies crying about the lack of skilled people but it is of their own making. As far as comparing a college education against practical training I would hire practical training any day over college.
Most of what I do now is figure out how to fix the junk imported from China. Companies crying about the lack of skilled people but it is of their own making. As far as comparing a college education against practical training I would hire practical training any day over college.
2LaneCruzer
Epic Contributor
We seem to be basically of one mind here; I think I see experience at work. There seems to be a University/academic mind set, especially for college educated individuals, which tends to look down on tradesmen, no matter how skilled, and this seems to filter down in our schools...not overtly, but because college educated teachers will naturally emphasize a college education. The false notion that you weren't smart unless you had a college education affected me to some degree, until experience taught me that was a bunch of hooey. I consider myself intelligent, but no matter how hard I try, I could never be a good mechanic. Partly because I am a bit inept at times, partly because it's a bit too physical for me and partly because because I'm not so inclined. We have a lot of good trade school in this state, which I'm sure turn out some great professionals. I would loved to have become skilled in auto restoration, but I chose otherwise.
I see a lot of "Old School' posters here, telling of their experiences from 40 years ago. Unfortunately "The times are changing"... past tense.
It's a lot less work with the same rewards to jump on the government dole.... so why not let somebody else put in the effort.
It's a lot less work with the same rewards to jump on the government dole.... so why not let somebody else put in the effort.
forgeblast
Elite Member
The school district I teach at just built a new "vo-tech" building, its a thing of beauty. We added 9 new programs and are looking to expand them. There is talk about letting middle school students take electives in the vo-tech area if there is room for them.
