Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[teejk]

...

We built our house in 2010 (west central Wisconsin). Our building code already required spray foam in the sill plates and required insulating the inside basement walls. We insulated to whatever the building (2x6) would allow. Guess it comes down to whether you want to "exist" in a box with few windows or not. As for electric "fixed charges" they have been too low for too long. Think about it...a typical home will be heated by some type of oil so the electric demands are largely refrigeration, clothes dryer and AC. To the credit of the "green" movement, they are much more efficient today than they were even 10 years ago (less "usage charges"). Yet those poles and lines ("fixed charges") still need to be maintained. For too long the former subsidized the latter but there is a "rebalance" happening now and people are shocked. I think it's as simple as that.

 

[buickanddeere]

175' is a breeze for better quality solar powered pumps. Our well pump is sitting at 400' and the four panels have no problem supplying it with enough power to pump.

How much water is pumped average per day?

 

[SirReal63]

Several hundred gallons, it will fill my my 2550 tank in a day, though the actual working volume is 2300.

 

[ironnut]

We just installed a 3 kw grid tie micro inverter solar panel system. Today the sun actually appeared and the system generated 17.5 kwHr for the ~8 hours of daylight. The system was advertised to produce 500 kwHr per month average. That would appear possible here in south west Idaho. The system cost was ~$7k, it was installed by my wife and I. The utility here does net metering (what you use - what you produce is what you pay for) and they allow you to carry over any excess power you do not use over the course of a year. In essence you get to use the power company as the battery. If you generate excess power during the summer months, you get a credit which you can use in the winter when you don't generate any excess power. If you generate more power than you use in a year, it remains a credit on the books, you don't get paid for that excess power, however if you use more power than you produce next year, you can use some or all of that credit.

As to the long distance transmission of power, 50% in a 100 miles would make the utility industry completely impossible. I looked on the internet and found a site, eia.gov, with this comment "The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) estimates that electricity transmission and distribution losses average about 6% of the electricity that is transmitted and distributed annually in the United States." 6% is still an enormous amount of electrical power considering what is generated in the US (~4000 terawatt-hrs) but a long ways from 50% or more. While Idaho Power gets a great deal of their power from hydro electric facilities they are also part owners in the John Bridger coal fired plant in Wyoming several hundred miles to the east. I can't imagine Idaho Power ever considering purchasing part of a coal fired plant several hundred miles away if they incurred 50% losses in energy transmission.

I don't mind the looks of the solar panels, especially if it cuts our power bill in half. Besides they make a decent snow fence.

At the moment Idaho power seems to actually like the idea of the grid tie solar system, especially in the summer time when the output of solar panel in the afternoon helps delay when they have to start running their peaking stations. I also think that if grid tie solar systems become too popular, a larger connection fee will appear or they will limit the total number of grid tie solar systems on their grid. Perhaps Elon Musk's house battery will be available and can be used to even things out or allow one to go completely off of the grid. I have a neighbor and friend who are both off of the grid. The latter was facing $30,000 per mile installation cost for grid power, so solar panels and lead acid batteries was a no brainer choice. Propane for heat, hot water, and cooking, otherwise you don't know that they are off of the grid.

gordon

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Dumb question has anybody figured out how much energy it takes to make those solar panels? I would be curious to know if a solar, could produce enough energy in its life span to produce its self. If I remember correctly there is a lot of glass in one of those things and doesn't it take a lot of energy to make glass?
So if they can't make themselves are they renewable? Or if they need a fossil fuel to be made are the renewable?

 

[sodamo]

We built our 3k+ sf house completely off grid, but my only thoughts regarding "green" we're ones of annoyance at the the marketing crap.
We had an unofficial estimate of $20K to possibly bring power from existing line. Of course that would only guarantee we'd have an ever increasing bill from one of the most expensive electric companies.
Realizing the term off grid seems to vary, here's what it means for us. We have absolutely no physical hookups to any utility:
All electricity is produced by 10kw solar with generator backup.
LP gas service via 250g tank
Cell phone only
Dish TV
Wireless internet via radio
Water supply is catchment system of 4 tanks of 4k gal each, another 3k tank at cottage.
Waste system is cesspool.

As for the house:
Built of R20 value SIPs, walls and roof
Situated to take advantage of breezes and sun
No heat other than LP fireplaces
No AC, but ceiling fans.
Appliances are standard type from Sears - Fridge, freezer, DW, washing machine, beer tap, 4 dorm size fridges, 4 microwave ovens, plus another fridge, washer, and microwave at cottage. Also an assortment of the usual small kitchen appliances. 2 plasma TVs and 3 led type
Kitchen range and cottage stove are LP, 4 on demand LP HW heaters, both dryers are LP, so is the grill.
Water pump is 240v 3/4hp at house, 120v 1/2hp at cottage.
In ground pool is 39k gal and a combination of 1 48v DC pump with own solar panels and 2 240v pumps.
Hot Tub is off the shelf from Costco with 2 pumps and 4kw heater.

My point being, we may be off grid, but we live a pretty normal, civilized manner. Our spiral bulbs are slowly being replaced with led. We don't run major electric appliances at night or during periods of poor sun. Our average electric use is about 25kw per day.

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[Terry1040]

David - Thanks for the great information of your off Grid set up & life style. Seems very normal to me & very much where I feel lots of us should strive for. Nothing here to suggest that off the Grid is an odd choice either. Location makes a great difference maybe with your days / hours of sunshine. Does your generator get much use on annual basis ?

 

[Terry1040]

Dumb question has anybody figured out how much energy it takes to make those solar panels? I would be curious to know if a solar, could produce enough energy in its life span to produce its self. If I remember correctly there is a lot of glass in one of those things and doesn't it take a lot of energy to make glass?
So if they can't make themselves are they renewable? Or if they need a fossil fuel to be made are the renewable?

Well you said it "Dumb question". I am NOT meaning that to be adverse to you personally . But here is my take on it. The energy cost of producing anything is built into the retail price that is paid for that item, so trying to figure it separately is really just an exercise that does not provide useful information. Or to take a different approach, spend your time measuring the energy cost of every item, ie , should you eat any food ? because the energy cost of producing might exceed the energy value to your body of the food eaten ?? etc. I would believe that most solar manufacturers do use solar as part of their production energy, why would they not do that. Hope you had a great Christmas. It was 16 degrees here high today, and yes we did use energy to keep warm etc.

 

[buickanddeere]

Several hundred gallons, it will fill my my 2550 tank in a day, though the actual working volume is 2300.

A non pressure tank? So another pump is required to provide pressurized water ?
That would be 1.75 gallons per minute? there are times when my pump with 12gpm at 60psi is not enough here.

 

[buickanddeere]

Look at the hours of sunlight per day on Hawaii vs the US north and just about any place in Canada during the fall, winter and spring.

 

[SirReal63]

A non pressure tank? So another pump is required to provide pressurized water ?
That would be 1.75 gallons per minute? there are times when my pump with 12gpm at 60psi is not enough here.

Correct, we use a holding tank with a separate pump to pressurize the system. At best the solar panels only gets about 6 hours of good light so about 5-6 gpm from 400', with actual head about 380' or so. I had my doubts that a solar powered pump would be able to do the job and I am happy to say it can.

This little Lorentz pump...

Produces this at 400'...

Holding tank and pressure tank.

Solar Panels

It is a pretty nice little setup, even without grid power we have water and the system can be pressurized via generator. Future plan is another solar pump with batteries for pressure. We have kept garden watered, grass watered and orchard watered and the tank always remains full.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Well you said it "Dumb question". I am NOT meaning that to be adverse to you personally . But here is my take on it. The energy cost of producing anything is built into the retail price that is paid for that item, so trying to figure it separately is really just an exercise that does not provide useful information. Or to take a different approach, spend your time measuring the energy cost of every item, ie , should you eat any food ? because the energy cost of producing might exceed the energy value to your body of the food eaten ?? etc. I would believe that most solar manufacturers do use solar as part of their production energy, why would they not do that. Hope you had a great Christmas. It was 16 degrees here high today, and yes we did use energy to keep warm etc.

Yes, but solar is pro porting to be "lowing" the carbon footprint. So, stated this way/again, "is solar really lowering the carbon foot print, when it CAN NOT MAKE ENOUGH ENERGY TO PRODUCE ITS SELF" The energy you use to get coal oil, gas, to the point of being a usable energy is a net gain. Not to mention the solar panels are made in third world countries that are not known for there clean use of fossil fuels. Yes the may use a solar panel to power part of there production, like to see them try it with out any fossil fuels to help melt all that sand. Key word part.

 

[sodamo]

Ah yes, location, location, location. Sad to say, but those maps only tell part of the story. Being at 1100ft elevation, we never get anywhere near the suggested 5 hours of productive sun. My neighbor down the hill does significantly better. This time of year I produce approx 1.6 kW per kW of panel. In November I had 2 days back to back of less than 10kw daily production. In non rainy season I can get 3-4kw/panel kW average. Before adding the hot tub generator use averaged about 1 Hr/day, now about 2/day. I did add another 4K of PV to help. I keep temp down to 95° but still a major draw this time of year. This coming year, I hope to take a good look at my panel mounting and tweak the angles anticipating better production. I keep hoping that I run across an inexpensive tool or method that would facilitate finding optimal angle at current orientation. My charge controllers could take some additional PV, so might do that in future, especially if fuel costs go back up.

As for the taxes/rebates with some people thinking they helped pay for my system, I have some different thoughts I may post later.

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[MinnesotaEric]

Driving in SD a few months ago I saw the pieces of a wind tower in transit. Looking at them in place one does not get an idea of how big those things are. As for the lack of "spinning" they might be locked for maintenance which I understand is frequent and expensive. I've seen some studies for around here and they might make sense in some spots like off the shore of Lake Michigan. Unfortunately nobody wants to see them there (nimby). There is huge array outside of Indianapolis and I guess it might make sense there. Rockford has a smaller array also. But to an earlier point their economics are heavily dependent on subsidies.

Elsewhere on the internet, a guy who I talk with is involved in teaching engineers how to frack for the last 40 years (so consider the source biased against) shared a study that giant windmills are a net loss considering the energy required to build, transport, erect, and maintain them. I didn't save the link.

 

[JCByrd24]

Yes, but solar is pro porting to be "lowing" the carbon footprint. So, stated this way/again, "is solar really lowering the carbon foot print, when it CAN NOT MAKE ENOUGH ENERGY TO PRODUCE ITS SELF" The energy you use to get coal oil, gas, to the point of being a usable energy is a net gain. Not to mention the solar panels are made in third world countries that are not known for there clean use of fossil fuels. Yes the may use a solar panel to power part of there production, like to see them try it with out any fossil fuels to help melt all that sand. Key word part.

Terry absolutely had it right. The energy required to produce and deliver anything is rolled into the retail price unless subsidized, which is a whole separate topic. At the end of the day it's a simple economics problem whether you are looking at wind, solar, coal , upgrading windows/insulation or a water heater or boiler. You have no problem with making glass to put in your house, TV, or tractor cab and yet somehow making glass for a solar panel is not green enough for you? My 3.8 kW grid tied solar system cost me $6k to install myself and will pay for itself in 7-10 years depending on energy prices here in Maine, which have now dropped 2 years in a row unfortunately for me. But they were predicted to rise 25% in 2015 and I was tired of having no say in that. After that I will have free power. Coal, oil, gas etc can be cheap, it is now, but it will never be free. And sure there will be a little maintenance cost on my system 10 years from now, but ill still be way ahead. And in terms of the environment way way ahead. On the flip side I'm glad I'm tied to the grid so I don't have to own batteries and can run all of my larger tools with no thought about draining a battery bank. I'm also not about to trade my premium burning straight 6 BMW for an electric car. I'm an engineer not a tree hugger. Solar panels make sense.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Terry absolutely had it right. The energy required to produce and deliver anything is rolled into the retail price unless subsidized, which is a whole separate topic. At the end of the day it's a simple economics problem whether you are looking at wind, solar, coal , upgrading windows/insulation or a water heater or boiler. You have no problem with making glass to put in your house, TV, or tractor cab and yet somehow making glass for a solar panel is not green enough for you? My 3.8 kW grid tied solar system cost me $6k to install myself and will pay for itself in 7-10 years depending on energy prices here in Maine, which have now dropped 2 years in a row unfortunately for me. But they were predicted to rise 25% in 2015 and I was tired of having no say in that. After that I will have free power. Coal, oil, gas etc can be cheap, it is now, but it will never be free. And sure there will be a little maintenance cost on my system 10 years from now, but ill still be way ahead. And in terms of the environment way way ahead. On the flip side I'm glad I'm tied to the grid so I don't have to own batteries and can run all of my larger tools with no thought about draining a battery bank. I'm also not about to trade my premium burning straight 6 BMW for an electric car. I'm an engineer not a tree hugger. Solar panels make sense.

If you're interested, as a neophyte, I'm really interested in learning how you did it and a component list!

 

[JCByrd24]

Elsewhere on the internet, a guy who I talk with is involved in teaching engineers how to frack for the last 40 years (so consider the source biased against) shared a study that giant windmills are a net loss considering the energy required to build, transport, erect, and maintain them. I didn't save the link.

Consider the source. Oil industry. Rich people and businesses tend not to throw their money away. If the economics didn't work they (windmills) wouldnt exist. If you think a lot goes into making a wind mill think about what goes into producing and delivering fuel and also producing the equipment that turns that fuel into another form of energy. I saw a similar quote recently. Turns out it was taken out of context and the real quote said a windmill could produce all its imbedded energy in as little as 3 months.

 

[JCByrd24]

If you're interested, as a neophyte, I'm really interested in learning how you did it and a component list!

Absolutely. Started with a Solar Edge/ Solar World kit from wholesalesolar.com. A couple hundred in ground wire, misc wiring and conduit and that was it. I'm in and airport now but PM me and I'll help you out when I get home.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Terry absolutely had it right. The energy required to produce and deliver anything is rolled into the retail price unless subsidized, which is a whole separate topic. At the end of the day it's a simple economics problem whether you are looking at wind, solar, coal , upgrading windows/insulation or a water heater or boiler. You have no problem with making glass to put in your house, TV, or tractor cab and yet somehow making glass for a solar panel is not green enough for you? My 3.8 kW grid tied solar system cost me $6k to install myself and will pay for itself in 7-10 years depending on energy prices here in Maine, which have now dropped 2 years in a row unfortunately for me. But they were predicted to rise 25% in 2015 and I was tired of having no say in that. After that I will have free power. Coal, oil, gas etc can be cheap, it is now, but it will never be free. And sure there will be a little maintenance cost on my system 10 years from now, but ill still be way ahead. And in terms of the environment way way ahead. On the flip side I'm glad I'm tied to the grid so I don't have to own batteries and can run all of my larger tools with no thought about draining a battery bank. I'm also not about to trade my premium burning straight 6 BMW for an electric car. I'm an engineer not a tree hugger. Solar panels make sense.

Don't agree but high jacking this post over this debate is not right and I was out of line for sticking my two cents in, when I did. You are looking a "price." I am actually looking at the environmental impact. It is a saving now, here in this country. In this country it is, "saving the environment" I just do not see the net gain, when you have a third world country, which has some of the most inefficient use of fossil fuels, making something, that pro ports to be saving the environment, by using more energy then it is ever going to save. It is saving, Money i will agree, but are they/we really using less energy and saving the environment? Also, making personal references as you did above is a little out of place..."You have no problem with making glass to put in your house, TV, or tractor cab and yet somehow making glass for a solar panel is not green enough for you?" We can agree to disagree. If I was out of line in any way I apologize.

 

[ironnut]

Solar panels are selling for a $1/watt or less so just say $250 for 250 watt panel. I have 12 250 watt panels. Yesterday I got 17.5 kw-hrs. 17.5 divided by 12 is 1.5 kw-hrs per panel for that day. Based on the averages suggested for the panels I bought, 1.5 kw-hrs per day average through a year seems reasonable. 1.5 kw-hrs/day times 365 days is 548 kw-hrs/year. At $0.10/ kw-hr that is $54.8 per year that I didn't have to pay for power. Assume the energy cost for producing the panel is 50% of the retail cost, than $250/2=$125/$54.8 per year=2.28 years to pay the energy debt. After the 2 plus years it has paid its energy debt and continues on the positive side of reducing the carbon foot print, hopefully for another 20 plus years.

gordon