Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[buickanddeere]

Ah yes, location, location, location. Sad to say, but those maps only tell part of the story. Being at 1100ft elevation, we never get anywhere near the suggested 5 hours of productive sun. My neighbor down the hill does significantly better. This time of year I produce approx 1.6 kW per kW of panel. In November I had 2 days back to back of less than 10kw daily production. In non rainy season I can get 3-4kw/panel kW average. Before adding the hot tub generator use averaged about 1 Hr/day, now about 2/day. I did add another 4K of PV to help. I keep temp down to 95° but still a major draw this time of year. This coming year, I hope to take a good look at my panel mounting and tweak the angles anticipating better production. I keep hoping that I run across an inexpensive tool or method that would facilitate finding optimal angle at current orientation. My charge controllers could take some additional PV, so might do that in future, especially if fuel costs go back up.

As for the taxes/rebates with some people thinking they helped pay for my system, I have some different thoughts I may post later.

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The fixed position 10Kw panel tied to my utility transformer averages just shy of 18,000Kw hrs per year. Dec, Jan and Feb output is near nil.

 

[teejk]

Elsewhere on the internet, a guy who I talk with is involved in teaching engineers how to frack for the last 40 years (so consider the source biased against) shared a study that giant windmills are a net loss considering the energy required to build, transport, erect, and maintain them. I didn't save the link.

I really hope that with time they can make it work but we are decades behind the times...in the meantime we are seeing the "pioneers" (Netherlands and Germany) starting to "do the math" on wind (I'll omit Denmark, Norway and Sweden since economics don't matter to them). Btw, one of those blades required a double flat bed semi trailer rig to transport (118' or so maybe)? The tower sections (3 I think) also were "oversized" loads so 9'+? I'd like to experiment with solar but in the middle of Wisconsin I might generate enough to charge my cell phone, not much more.

 

[prevent]

I've always thought about getting a nice residential wind turbine like those Skystream 3.7's or a 1-2kW solar system on a tower but It never seemed like it would pay for itself ever... buy the turbine/solar panels, then have to buy all the nick tower for wind turbine to be high enough, guy wires, right location..

I'll just stick to converting my lighting from incandescent to LED's (CFL are the devil) and energy efficient appliances. I think that equals doing my part, I'll let the big companies do their part with the solar farms and wind farms.

 

[westcliffe01]

The above ignores the fat that most of the companies that make solar panels are publicly traded. In general they have at least a 30% profit margin on the product which means a 40% markup on cost. So cost is about 60c/watt and energy is just a fraction of that.

I have to wonder where people think the huge energy cost is sunk in making solar panels ? Is it growing the silicone crystal ? Slicing and polishing the wafers ? Doping the wafers once they have been sliced and diced ? Lets face it, processing silicon wafers is the mere starting point of the entire electronics industry, usually it is what is done once they have the sliced and polished wafers that is "value add". Making a picture frame from aluminium is hardly something exotic, nor is adding a piece of tempered glass for the outer face.

Solar panels are selling for a $1/watt or less so just say $250 for 250 watt panel. I have 12 250 watt panels. Yesterday I got 17.5 kw-hrs. 17.5 divided by 12 is 1.5 kw-hrs per panel for that day. Based on the averages suggested for the panels I bought, 1.5 kw-hrs per day average through a year seems reasonable. 1.5 kw-hrs/day times 365 days is 548 kw-hrs/year. At $0.10/ kw-hr that is $54.8 per year that I didn't have to pay for power. Assume the energy cost for producing the panel is 50% of the retail cost, than $250/2=$125/$54.8 per year=2.28 years to pay the energy debt. After the 2 plus years it has paid its energy debt and continues on the positive side of reducing the carbon foot print, hopefully for another 20 plus years.

gordon

 

[buickanddeere]

I wonder what is would cost to clean up and dispose of the toxic byproducts of PV cell manufacture ?

 

[teejk]

Read an article today about the "roadblocks" to solar and wind...storage seems to be #1...battery systems are expensive, don't provide power for long, don't last long and disposal costs are high. I think the techies are now trying to overcome all that. In the meantime I've yet to see any study that says it is economically feasible in most of the continental US.

 

[buickanddeere]

The problem is that every combination on the periodic table has been tried. There is nothing new unless the Almighty adds some new elements.
To make rechargeable cells at room temperature and pressure we are stuck with sodium, Ni-MH, lead and lithium. Engineering firms are happy to take grant money, make theoretical promises and research until the money runs out. And no new battery.

 

[KennyG]

The problem is that every combination on the periodic table has been tried. There is nothing new unless the Almighty adds some new elements.
To make rechargeable cells at room temperature and pressure we are stuck with sodium, Ni-MH, lead and lithium. Engineering firms are happy to take grant money, make theoretical promises and research until the money runs out. And no new battery.

Not necessarily. For the past 15 or 20 years there have been very interesting battery concepts using conductive and capacitive polymers instead of metals. Some of them have been successful in very specialized applications, but the potential exists for a completely new battery approach that has much higher specific capacity. Maybe it will happen and maybe it won't but the potential is there.

 

[Egon]

Another approach.
Two hundred years ago no power grid. Wondering if their pair of dimes got shifted!

 

[buickanddeere]

Another approach.
Two hundred years ago no power grid. Wondering if their pair of dimes got shifted!

The stirling heat engine shows up every now and again in a this manner of Rankine design. It is an interesting curiosity.
With an energy density of 8 hours at most, 2Mw to 5MW per unit and at most 70% efficiency. How many of these units will be required to carry the USA for a couple of winter days with shortened daylight hours and high demand?

 

[Egon]

The stirling heat engine shows up every now and again in a this manner of Rankine design. It is an interesting curiosity.
With an energy density of 8 hours at most, 2Mw to 5MW per unit and at most 70% efficiency. How many of these units will be required to carry the USA for a couple of winter days with shortened daylight hours and high demand?

I'm quite sure I don't know but with your knowledge you should!

Nice animated video wasn't it.

 

[buickanddeere]

I'm quite sure I don't know but with your knowledge you should!

Nice animated video wasn't it.

So pretty I up and went to get the wife and kids to watch it as well.

Here are the numbers. You had better do the calculations as you won't believe how many million of them are required.

Electricity - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

 

[JCByrd24]

Don't agree but high jacking this post over this debate is not right and I was out of line for sticking my two cents in, when I did. You are looking a "price." I am actually looking at the environmental impact. It is a saving now, here in this country. In this country it is, "saving the environment" I just do not see the net gain, when you have a third world country, which has some of the most inefficient use of fossil fuels, making something, that pro ports to be saving the environment, by using more energy then it is ever going to save. It is saving, Money i will agree, but are they/we really using less energy and saving the environment? Also, making personal references as you did above is a little out of place..."You have no problem with making glass to put in your house, TV, or tractor cab and yet somehow making glass for a solar panel is not green enough for you?" We can agree to disagree. If I was out of line in any way I apologize.

The point some of us trying to make to you is that it is absolutely false that the panel won't make the energy that went into producing it and delivering it. The proof if is in the economics even if you don't have the data or believe the science. BTW my panels were not made in a third world country they were made in Germany. Many panels sold in the U.S. are from Canada. My examples were not a personal attack on you but simply to point out that we spend money and environmental impact on tons of products that only use energy to make, some that then use energy themselves, so if we use some of that to makes products that make energy I don't see how people can argue so strongly against that. It's like investing some of your money for the future instead of just spending every penny you have on fun stuff today.

 

[buickanddeere]

Manufactured and assembled are two different terms and definitions.

 

[orezok]

Replace dead energy with live energy... it will never work!

Will Cars Ever Replace The Family Horse? – The Moderate Voice

 

[Egon]

So pretty I up and went to get the wife and kids to watch it as well.

Here are the numbers. You had better do the calculations as you won't believe how many million of them are required.

Electricity - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Interesting site but too complicated for me.

Afraid you'll have to do your own calculations to answere your own question.

 

[buickanddeere]

Interesting site but too complicated for me.

Afraid you'll have to do your own calculations to answere your own question.

The supporters of green energy should all have to work through the math to understand what it is they are actually asking for.
It's easy to join the club, have good intentions for the earth and mankind and enjoy the power and protection of a mob. Not so easy to make real world technology , instead of Star Trek technology actually work.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

years ago I looked at the windstream. A 2 or 3 in the area, but just not enough wind here to make it work out. Considering solar, but will only do it if I get all the benefit, not with one of those companies that knock a few dollars off your bill and then you pay them for their system. No such thing as a free lunch or a free solar system install. Only way I can see a solar system paying off relatively short is to do a self install on a grid tie system, which I am capable of doing. Need to price them again.

 

[Egon]

The supporters of green energy should all have to work through the math to understand what it is they are actually asking for.
It's easy to join the club, have good intentions for the earth and mankind and enjoy the power and protection of a mob. Not so easy to make real world technology , instead of Star Trek technology actually work.

But-But-But; you asked the question. Can't recall joining any club other than 4-H more than a few years ago.

Gotta think of paradimes you know. Cause if some folks didn't do that you'd still be attending to an Areomotor or taking in sails every night.

 

[buickanddeere]

There is some "new" tech that is more $$$ than the existing . I doubt if anybody will find the cash for millions of those stirling hot gravel energy storage systems.
There is no quick, simple and cheap "solution" for energy concerns that are real and for those concerns that have been invented.
Invariably the same group that invents a "problem" and gets the sheep of the general public all terrified. They are the same group that later comes along and offers the terrified sheep/public a solution in exchange for lots of the terrified sheep's $$$ .