john deere 410 backhoe barely moves forward but moves in reverse ok

[Jack999]

The trans pump is just a gear pump that bolts to the reverse brake housing. Check your service manual there may be a way to adjust relief valve on the reverser clutch control valve that bolts onto the side of the reverser. Without my manual I can't remember for sure what the relief in the reverser control does exactly.
When you had the reverser out, did you replace all sealing rings in both clutch packs and the orings on all of the tubes inside?
You can air test this unit just like an auto transmission. When you add air to the proper tube, you can hear the clutch packs engage.

I did change the seal rings in the forward clutch pack and the orings on the tubs inside but the reverser clutch disk'pads and seals looked like new.
I'm thinking on changing all the springs in the reverser clutch control valve assembly to see if I can get the pressure up on the forward port and may be
add some shims but I will try new springs first' I just ordered them so waiting for them to come in. Does anyone have any other suggestions because I'm
running out of things to check and I need to get this frustrating machine going. Thanks

 

[Cpjlube]

If you drop the rear stabilizers and raise the rear wheels, you can keep the machine stationary and test. Also you could remove a floor plate and run the gauge up to the operator seat.
I wonder if you raise the rear wheels and put it in forward if it will turn. Mine had a snap ring failure on reverse that prevented complete clutch lock up. But it would move a little bit with wheels raised.
Just an idea.
Do you have the service manual? I'll check mine today. There is relief valve in the reverser clutch control valve.

 

[Jack999]

If you drop the rear stabilizers and raise the rear wheels, you can keep the machine stationary and test. Also you could remove a floor plate and run the gauge up to the operator seat.
I wonder if you raise the rear wheels and put it in forward if it will turn. Mine had a snap ring failure on reverse that prevented complete clutch lock up. But it would move a little bit with wheels raised.
Just an idea.
Do you have the service manual? I'll check mine today. There is relief valve in the reverser clutch control valve.

Thanks Cpjlube for replying
I'm running out of ideas here and no I don't have a service manual I'm just going off of what I have read on the Internet for problem that are the same as mine or close. I did raise the backhoe up at the back and put it in forward and the wheels did turn slow. I got my springs in for the reverser clutch control valve assembly but when I had it apart I notices that the piston was scored up alittle and wondering if I should change it to before I put it back together. Any other Ideas maybe what to look for. Thanks again

 

[Jack999]

Thanks Cpjlube for replying
I'm running out of ideas here and no I don't have a service manual I'm just going off of what I have read on the Internet for problem that are the same as mine or close. I did raise the backhoe up at the back and put it in forward and the wheels did turn slow. I got my springs in for the reverser clutch control valve assembly but when I had it apart I notices that the piston was scored up alittle and wondering if I should change it to before I put it back together. Any other Ideas maybe what to look for. Thanks again

Just an update ' I ordered a new piston' pressure relief valve and all the pin fasteners for the reverser clutch control valve assembly with all the springs so everything will almost be new in it. If this doesn't work I can always sell it for scrap metal

 

[buickanddeere]

A service manual costs less than randomly purchasing parts over and over . Plus your time hoping that this time it will work. Then scrapping the project .

 

[Cpjlube]

A service manual costs less than randomly purchasing parts over and over . Plus your time hoping that this time it will work. Then scrapping the project .

I totally agree. I just completely rebuilt my reverser. Without that repair manual and parts list, it would just be a pile of parts or a broken machine.
Buy the repair manual and parts list and fix it right. The piston you are referring to is an acumulator in the reverser control valve. Probly not related to your issue.
There is a ton of knowledge on this site but without the manuals you will have trouble understanding what people are referring to. Trust me they are worth gold.

 

[jb1390]

I totally agree. I just completely rebuilt my reverser. Without that repair manual and parts list, it would just be a pile of parts or a broken machine.
Buy the repair manual and parts list and fix it right. The piston you are referring to is an acumulator in the reverser control valve. Probly not related to your issue.
There is a ton of knowledge on this site but without the manuals you will have trouble understanding what people are referring to. Trust me they are worth gold.

I concur with what others have stated regarding a manual.

Did you test the reverser to ensure that the clutch packs actually engage under pressure (using compressed air) before you reassembled the tractor? If not, there is no guarantee that you are not missing a clutch plate, or that the clutch piston is not binding. The fact that it holds 100 psi would indicate that the o-ring seal is ok, 100 psi should be more than enough to get the tractor to move. I suspect that your clutch plates are not engaging correctly.

You can eliminate the valve as the cause by removing it and attempting to engage the clutches using air. Prop the back wheels, spin by hand and ensure the clutches actually grab.

There is a place in northern maine that sells used JD and older equipment parts. He has stuff for the reverser assembly, etc. Not sure how you resolved your snap ring issue - but I think there's a chance that it could be the root cause of your current clutch issue.

 

[Cpjlube]

I bought reverser parts from a few different used parts places. You will need the part numbers to get the right part. One more reason to get parts list.......

 

[jd110]

I haven't been on this thread for a while, so I scanned back through the posts. After seeing the picture of the worn clutch drum, I wonder what your piston looked like. Are you sure it wasn't worn and causing leakage from the seals? Also, did you replace the metal sealing rings on the back of the drum where it fits into the clutch housing? The bushing/sleeve that the sealing rings seal against often gets worn and needs to be replaced. New sealing rings won't seat on an irregular surface. REference items 1 & 2a or 2b in diagram. Also be sure to check the forward/reverse linkage to be sure it is shifting fully into forward.

 

[Cpjlube]

I haven't been on this thread for a while, so I scanned back through the posts. After seeing the picture of the worn clutch drum, I wonder what your piston looked like. Are you sure it wasn't worn and causing leakage from the seals? Also, did you replace the metal sealing rings on the back of the drum where it fits into the clutch housing? The bushing/sleeve that the sealing rings seal against often gets worn and needs to be replaced. New sealing rings won't seat on an irregular surface. REference items 1 & 2a or 2b in diagram. Also be sure to check the forward/reverse linkage to be sure it is shifting fully into forward.

The sealing rings in the forward clutch housing were rubber on my 410. But that snap ring groove wear looks bad. I would test clutch lockup with air. I bet it needs a new housing. I bet it's under 300 to buy. Better than scrapping it.

 

[Jack999]

I haven't been on this thread for a while, so I scanned back through the posts. After seeing the picture of the worn clutch drum, I wonder what your piston looked like. Are you sure it wasn't worn and causing leakage from the seals? Also, did you replace the metal sealing rings on the back of the drum where it fits into the clutch housing? The bushing/sleeve that the sealing rings seal against often gets worn and needs to be replaced. New sealing rings won't seat on an irregular surface. REference items 1 & 2a or 2b in diagram. Also be sure to check the forward/reverse linkage to be sure it is shifting fully into forward.

Thanks for the reply
I did check the piston and it wasn't worn and looked good' I did change the rubber seals on the piston and changed the metal sealing rings on the back of the Drum but I did not change the bushing I thought it looked ok. I did check the forward/reverse linkage to make sure the pins in the linkage are ok and it does shift fully into forward. I disconnected the linkage and tried it by hand and no difference it was ok.
If the bushing/sleeve was worn and I did not see it would that make it loss pressure for my forward clutch or is it more the piston.
Thanks again for your reply and help

 

[Jack999]

I concur with what others have stated regarding a manual.

Did you test the reverser to ensure that the clutch packs actually engage under pressure (using compressed air) before you reassembled the tractor? If not, there is no guarantee that you are not missing a clutch plate, or that the clutch piston is not binding. The fact that it holds 100 psi would indicate that the o-ring seal is ok, 100 psi should be more than enough to get the tractor to move. I suspect that your clutch plates are not engaging correctly.

You can eliminate the valve as the cause by removing it and attempting to engage the clutches using air. Prop the back wheels, spin by hand and ensure the clutches actually grab.

There is a place in northern maine that sells used JD and older equipment parts. He has stuff for the reverser assembly, etc. Not sure how you resolved your snap ring issue - but I think there's a chance that it could be the root cause of your current clutch issue.

Thanks for your reply
I did not test the clutch packs under pressure using air. Not sure how to do that.
I took the Drum to a machine shop an they welded the Drum shaft up and then turned it down and put the snap ring grove back in' It was cheaper then a new Drum but not sure if it was the right thing to do now.
I checked the price for a New Drum and it was $1680.00 canadian

 

[Jack999]

OK still haven't got my 410 backhoe fixed yet.
I did buy the service manual and I did a air test to it and found out that there was air leaking out the back side of the clutch drum so I looked closer and the clutch drum sleeve has two ware marks in it from the steel seal rings. I ordered new sleeve and all bushing and did another air test and it was not leaking air now' I checked the clutch piston when I did the air test and it was coming in and out ok no binding so I put everything back together and tried it out and still something wrong. It moves forward slow in first & second but that's it and won't go up a little slope' It feels like it's slipping or something. When I did the pressure test I have now 150 psi in my bottom port and the forward port is between 140 and 150 psi. Something still most be wrong with the drum ' Can't think of anything else. Maybe the clutch disks are not locking up right but when I did the air test to the piston it looked like it was moving free in and out no binding. Does anyone know what else to check before I rip it apart for the third time. I'm thinking of getting another drum for it because the problem I had with this one. It's the only thing I can think of that can be wrong with it. I know cpjlube said that there was a place in northern maine that has used JD reverser assembly parts. Do you know what the name of this place is called so I can contact them and see if they have one. Or if anyone has any other Ideas let me know. Thanks

 

[jb1390]

OK still haven't got my 410 backhoe fixed yet.
I did buy the service manual and I did a air test to it and found out that there was air leaking out the back side of the clutch drum so I looked closer and the clutch drum sleeve has two ware marks in it from the steel seal rings. I ordered new sleeve and all bushing and did another air test and it was not leaking air now' I checked the clutch piston when I did the air test and it was coming in and out ok no binding so I put everything back together and tried it out and still something wrong. It moves forward slow in first & second but that's it and won't go up a little slope' It feels like it's slipping or something. When I did the pressure test I have now 150 psi in my bottom port and the forward port is between 140 and 150 psi. Something still most be wrong with the drum ' Can't think of anything else. Maybe the clutch disks are not locking up right but when I did the air test to the piston it looked like it was moving free in and out no binding. Does anyone know what else to check before I rip it apart for the third time. I'm thinking of getting another drum for it because the problem I had with this one. It's the only thing I can think of that can be wrong with it. I know cpjlube said that there was a place in northern maine that has used JD reverser assembly parts. Do you know what the name of this place is called so I can contact them and see if they have one. Or if anyone has any other Ideas let me know. Thanks

The place you are referring to is Maine Tractor Crossing. I've been up there to get parts for my 300 several years ago.

Not sure what to tell you on the clutch pack - besides it seems like it's slipping. When I did the air test on mine I did it on a bench, with the center section removed. I could then feel the lockup, both forward and reverse. If you are getting good oil pressure when forward is engaged, then I would think there is something incorrect in the clutch pack. If the oil pressure is low, then I would suspect a leak.

Also make sure you clean any O-ring surfaces very well. I put them on a lathe and used very light sandpaper to clean off the burned o-ring residue.

 

[Cpjlube]

You said you had the forward clutch drum repaired. It's possible the repair is wrong and the clutches cannot lock up. If you have over 100 psi at the fwd test port then its holding pressure and should lock up. This confirms sealing rings and o rings are good. This only leaves worn clutch discs and spacers or the piston isn't compressing properly. Double check your diagnosis before you tear into it again. Check shift linkage and make sure it's fully engaged. Take the linkage off and manually engage fwd.
The place I recommend is IHM out of Kentucky. Ask for Ronnie he's a solid guy. Been very helpful. I've purchased fwd and reverse clutch housings and swing frames from him. Great prices.

 

[Jack999]

Thanks for your reply.
How did you do your air test on the bench with your forward clutch' My oil holes is down in a grove so it's hard to get a air tip down there to get it to seal right at the hole. I was thinking on making a rubber boot to go over it with a hole for my air nozzle to do the test if that would work. Last time I put it back in the housing and put air to the tube from the control valve. My steel O-rings and rubber ones are all brand new in there and I cleaned everything off and put a coat of oil on them before I installed them.

 

[Jack999]

Thanks again for your reply Cpjlube
As for the clutch disk and plates I put brand new ones in there and you got me thinking so I looked them up at john deere online again just now and in my service manual to see if they were the right ones' Both numbers matched to the one I put in. Clutch disk R31404 and clutch plate R57345 so it can't be that. I did check the linkage and pulled the bar off and moved it by hand' No difference so I'm thinking there is something wrong with the drum that I got repaired' That was probable a waste of money. When I did the air test to it I could see the piston coming in and out but I did not have the disk and plate on because I wanted to see if the piston was moving alright when it was in the housing. If I had it all together with the shaft bolted on I would out be able to see if the piston was coming out. If I could of done a air test on the bench I guess I would be able to see it but I could not get air to the hole unless I make a boot to hole the air I guess. How did you do yours

 

[Cpjlube]

I used an air nozzle with a large rubber tip on it. If I remember correctly the two large tubes at the clutch control valve were the ones I used. One is fwd and other is reverse. I could actually turn the shaft and add air and watch the shaft reverse while hand turning.
Note: if you decide to replace the fwd drum and are ABSOLUTELY sure all other internals are good, you do not have to pull reverser housing again. Just separate at motor. You will have to cut and weld clutch rod if it isn't a two piece one, but it saves a ton of work!

 

[Jack999]

That's what I did for the air test when threw the tube from the control valve and the reverse one went threw the tube on the pump and I was just thinking about that today if I replace the Drum that I should be able to just split it at the motor and that would save me some time everything else should be ok in there' I change all the o-rings and bushings and the reverser was ok but I did change the O-rings seals in it since I had it apart already' And for the rod I do have the two peace rod so thats good.I think I found a drum in Texas for $500.USD but he still has to get back to me about shipping it to Ontario Canada. I'm going to lookup the IHM out of kentucky if I can find it and see if they have one and how much. Thanks for getting back to me so quick

 

[Cpjlube]

No problem. Good luck. Your close to getting her to work. Just take some time and read the repair manual. Try to understand how the fluid flows through the system. It's really a simple system. I had to split mine twice to get it right, So your not alone.
Just be sure to verify your tests before you split. Make sure your going after the right problem.

Chuck