Switch back to dino oil from synthetic?

[sixdogs]

I have used synthetic motor oil for many years and am growing concerned that the pending versions due in 2017 will reduce engine protection enough that I might be better off switching back to a non-synthetic "dino" oil. Most of the newest oil categories, close as I can figure, only reduce the levels of the ZDDP that is necessary to protect various part of the valve train. The change is because of newer DPF tractors and by that virtue will force all older tractor models into the new oil use mode that I don't want to be in.

Now, I know oils are supposedly back engineered but I'm not sure I believe that ZDDP amounts can be further reduced without eventually causing some engine harm, especially in older engines. If I switch back to dino oils, I can get versions that have not reduced the ZDDP levels and are more than adequate for my engines.

My equipment is used mostly in the summer, gets short interval oil changes and is post 2003 up to 2014. No DPF or DEF stuff. So I really don't need synthetic; my only purpose was for reduction of startup wear.


What do others think? Switch or fight?

 

[Copperhead]

Well, conventional or synthetic, what makes an oil meet a classification is the additive package. ZDDP has nothing to do with the base oil. You essentially are wanting to use an oil that has a stout additive package from your description of your concerns. The newer classifications of oils will affect both synthetic and conventional oils.

There are many other additives that are used that deliver protection that traditional zinc/phosphorus combination has. Molybdenum, Titanium, etc in combination with boron is a good example. ZDDP can by highly overrated by some. Actually, some of the better oils (conventional or synthetic) will use broad add pack that includes a complimentary balance of ZDDP, Calcium, Boron, Moly or Titanium, boron, etc. Zinc/Phosphorus is not the only extreme pressure protection additive that can be used in motor oil. There reasoning behind reduction ZDDP has a lot to do with downstream emissions component life, but while ZDDP may be reduced, a good oil will supplement with other additives that do not have a negative effect on emissions stuff and complement the reduced ZDDP to provide ample protection.

If a oil classification meets, say CJ-4, it doesn't matter if it is synthetic or conventional, it will have an add pack that is designed for CJ-4. When CK-4 comes out December 1st, it will not make a difference if it is synthetic or conventional, the add pack will meet CK-4. The thing is, CK-4 is going to be designed for decreased wear and increased protection from oxidation, among other things. That will mean that higher levels of moly or titanium will be used in them, along with higher levels of calcium for acid control and detergency.

There will still be CJ-4 and other past classifications around for a while. There are a lot of legacy engines around that the owners will still want to use formulas that do not meet the new classification. I think you are getting the cart before the horse on this one. I wouldn't give it any worry time.

 

[sixdogs]

Copperhead---Many thanks for your very informative reply.

So when the new labelled CK-4 oils start showing up, they are OK to use in 20 year old Kubota diesels?

Second, if I found a dino oil labelled as CJ-4 and I would switch to that over the synthetic I have been using, would you expect any material operational difference since I use equipment in warm weather and have short oil change intervals? I use synthetic partly because I feel I get better start-up protection, especially if the equipment has been sitting for a month or so. Does synthetic protect this way? Do you use dino or synthetic ?

Any info appreciated.

 

[The Fred]

PC-11A (Licenses as API CK-4)

Viscosity grades include both SAExW-40 and xW -30 engine oils with >3.5 cP HT/HS viscosity
Higher level of wear and oxidation protection versus API CJ-4 oils
Improved shear stability


Q. What is the difference between CK-4 and FA-4 oils? - GotQuestions? PC-11, The New Engine Oils - TruckingInfo.com


Regards, Fred

 

[Copperhead]

Copperhead---Many thanks for your very informative reply.

So when the new labelled CK-4 oils start showing up, they are OK to use in 20 year old Kubota diesels?

Second, if I found a dino oil labelled as CJ-4 and I would switch to that over the synthetic I have been using, would you expect any material operational difference since I use equipment in warm weather and have short oil change intervals? I use synthetic partly because I feel I get better start-up protection, especially if the equipment has been sitting for a month or so. Does synthetic protect this way? Do you use dino or synthetic ?

Any info appreciated.

I am not worried on my 17 year old Detroit engine using CK-4. I have grown partial to synthetic blend oil I get from my supplier. They are usually in the price range of many conventionals and offer the best of both worlds. Conventional oils have come a long, long way this century. I would not have any problem using them in your situation. Synthetics tend to be more cost effective for extremes... like severe cold temperature start up flow and extreme component heat situations. A quality conventional will protect an engine that is sitting as much as any synthetic. You can find any of the major name brands with good synthetic blends. I don't use it, but I have seen many used oil samples on the Mobil Delvac syn blend and it is one stout oil. But just get a brand that is cost effective and helps you sleep well at night. There are a lot of very good oils out there and the new CK-4 will do just fine in the older stuff. It has been tested and tested and tested for quite a while now. I first heard about them developing this class at least two years ago. The oil folks are not going to shove something inferior down our throats. If they did, it would be a death sentence to their business. Commercial users are the primary users of diesel rated oils, and you diss that segment and you can kiss you business goodbye.

 

[sixdogs]

Good advice, Copperhead. Thank you.

I'm beginning the mental process on a switch from full synthetic to a quality semi-syn or even quality dino oil.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, I don't fall for the synthetic vs dino arguments anymore. Base oils have really come full swing into the 21st century. My only focus on my oil selections have to do with the additive package that makes up 20% of any motor oil you buy. And there are some quality dino and blends on the market. Kendall, Mystik, Mobil, Delo, etc. Even many of the farm and home store brands are killer. I saw the testing done on Rural King conventional oil by the Petroleum Quality Institute of America, and it is on par with most any national name brand oil you can find on the shelf. Even Love's Truck Stop label is on par with Mobil 1300 super.

Find a brand you feel comfortable with, at the best price you can, and live long and prosper!

 

[DieselBound]

When I have questions about lubricants and fluids I run over to BobIsTheOilGuy.com. Here's an interesting thread that brings up some current thoughts regarding ZDDP:
A New Theory of ZDDP FIlm Formation | Technical and White Papers | Bob Is The Oil Guy

Sounds like there may be some pretty significant re-thinking going on.

Best gauge of how effective a lubricant is performing is to have a lab analysis done (fairly cheap). If the operator doesn't notice any issues and the lab reports look good then I wouldn't think that there should be room for much concern.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, too much emphasis has been put on ZDDP over the years. Was an issue back in the day with some engines. But additive package formulations have really been modernized by Infineum and Lubrizol, among others. I like to look for balances of various compounds in an add pack, since they tend to compliment each other with better results than one or two acting alone.

 

[dodge man]

I know Amsoil offers some oils that have high ZDDP levels, but I think they are geared more for gas engines. You can check to see what they offer though.

 

[Copperhead]

Here is a snap of the the additive package on a Schaeffer 5w40 synthetic I have been trying for a while in my Series 60 Detroit. One stout add pack in it.

 

[sixdogs]

Here is a snap of the the additive package on a Schaeffer 5w40 synthetic I have been trying for a while in my Series 60 Detroit. One stout add pack in it.

View attachment 490195

I recognize the high phosphorus number but need help with understanding the other numbers. I'm a newbie but it looks pretty good.

 

[Copperhead]

Calcium is basically Tums for your motor and part of what controls acids. It is all part of the detergency of a oil to keep things clean. Magnesium and sodium compliment that. This oil has a boat load of calcium, one of the highest levels I have seen in an oil.

Zinc, in conjunction with the phosphorus is a extreme pressure modifier. A very good load of both in this oil. Zinc and phosphorus combined are the ZDDP you read about in oils.

Moly and boron are friction modifiers. Molybdenum has a platelet style structure. Kinda like spreading a bunch of new playing cards across a surface and sliding a box on them. Moly does not build up, the plates spread along. Boron is actually boric acid, that is very inexpensive to make but is a great friction modifier as well. Titanium, in some oils like Kendall, performs a similar service as moly.

 

[Z71]

fyi Info from AMSOIL O

AMSOIL Quickshots: New Diesel Specs - YouTube

 

[Garandman]

We ran two Honda Accord V6's to over 200,000 miles, one on dino and one on Mobil One. We changed at the recommended 7,500 miles and had oil analysis done here and there. We did not find any meaningful difference.

I still use Synthetic in my motorcycles and WRX but everything else we use dino and change at the recommended intervl.

 

[Copperhead]

Yeah, the differences between synthetic and conventional are getting more gray. Synthetic has its place, but many conventional oils will do just fine. I like the blends. Virtually the same price as good conventional oils, but the best of both worlds.

 

[sixdogs]

I've got a little synthetic to use up but am going back to dino or semi synthetic when it's gone.

 

[3930dave]

Copperhead---Many thanks for your very informative reply.

So when the new labelled CK-4 oils start showing up, they are OK to use in 20 year old Kubota diesels?

Second, if I found a dino oil labelled as CJ-4 and I would switch to that over the synthetic I have been using, would you expect any material operational difference since I use equipment in warm weather and have short oil change intervals? I use synthetic partly because I feel I get better start-up protection, especially if the equipment has been sitting for a month or so. Does synthetic protect this way? Do you use dino or synthetic ?

Any info appreciated.

One application I like synthetics for is extreme temperatures - I have run 15W40 in my diesels during Summer here, but prefer a 5W40 or 0W40 for Winter starting.

As has been well stated by Cu and others, for short change intervals, you'd be hard pressed to go wrong with any name brand oil, and most house brands (conventional or synth) that meets the viscosity requirements of your motor.

Where synthetics have an edge is in the high temperature extended durations that many light road-going vehicles are now pushed to. Specs like Dexos can't really meet sludge formation and NOAK volatility (how fast the oil burns off) w/o going to at least a semi-synthetic. Those things will matter in a modern road vehicle going 10,000 miles + on an oil-change, but not in what you describe for your tractor application.

Rgds, D.

 

[Copperhead]

That makes sense. I also will use a 5w40 during the cold months and 15w40 in warm months. The 15w40 is a little cheaper and there is not the need for the very low cold flow properties of a 5w40 then. I use the same brand for both. The 5w40 is a full syn and the 15w40 is a syn blend.

 

[stoyan79]

I have noticed Synthetic oil would keep air cooled engine much cooler. I guess this is from less friction. I have measures air cooled engine blocks staying as much as 20 degrees cooler, running them hard in hot summer days. I use Amsoil, but I am sure results might be similar with other synthetic oils.