First decision: CUT vs construction backhoe

[Coach v]

We are looking to buy our first tractor. We built our home about 10 years ago in the mountains of rural NE California at 3500' on about 3 sloped rocky treed acres in the woods.

We have many different uses for this tractor, most all being currently done by hand. These include moving approx 10 yards of sand for pigs every season (my boys show 4-H) , digging the hole to process backup pig, snow removal on 800' of drive (600' gravel, 200 asphalt), maintaining gravel drive, moving firewood and rocks, digging stumps, moving and leveling fill and native soil.

Renting is generally out of the picture as closest rental yard is an hour plus and transportation costs are high. I am sometimes able to borrow friends skid steer and Kubota b21. I don't like doing this, especially when stuff breaks.

I have been looking at used older 2x4 construction backhoes in the $10k range. I have not pulled the trigger as I worry about them being too big and too much work/problems.

I think a compact farm tractor would be more versatile, but worry about not having enough power/weight and they are 3x the price.

I have a Deere dealer about 25 miles from me. Closest Kubota dealer 2.5hrs. Branson, Mahrinda, Koiti, LS, New Holland dealers between 1 and 1.5 hours out.

I have been going in circles over decided and need some help. Which direction would you go?

 

[Coach v]

I have several hundred feet of trench to dig for water lines too.

 

[4570Man]

A construction backhoe will make a fool out of a tractor when it comes to dirt moving. The downside is they’re heavy and not very versatile. Given the limited budget I think the construction hoe is the best value. 10k backhoes are likely to be problematic. But so is any old and well used machine.

 

[jeff9366]

Where will you store a construction Backhoe on three acres?

Are you a reasonably competent mechanic?
Where I live in north-central Florida the Kubota shop charges $75 per hour for mechanic time.
I would expect at least $100 per hour for mechanic time in California.


The most efficient way to shop for tractors is to identify potential tractor applications first, then determine bare tractor weight necessary to safely accomplish your applications.

The fundamental importance of TRACTOR WEIGHT eludes many tractor shoppers. Heavier tractor weight is more important for most tractor applications than increased tractor horsepower. Bare tractor weight is a tractor specification easily found in sales brochures and web sites, readily comparable across tractor brands and tractor models, new and used.

I believe a compact 4-WD tractor with minimum bare tractor weight of 2,700 pounds, with an optional Front End Loader should serve for your applications, less stump removal. The Loader bucket will need an aftermarket Toothbar to dig well.
VENDER: W.R. Long, Inc. | Tooth Bar & Wear Blades

When considering a tractor purchase, bare tractor weight first, tractor horsepower second and (narrowly) rear wheel ballast third.

Due to your altitude and hills I recommend 33-horsepower to 39-horsepower paired with a three (3) range HST transmission. Consider optional wheel spacers to spread the rear wheels for increased stability.

How deep do you need to trench for water lines?
If only 12" to 14" deep you can use a Three Point Hitch mounted Middlebuster of Subsoiler to loose the soil, then scoop out some spoil with a narrow trenching shovel.
VIDEOS: tractor middlebuster trenching - YouTube
tractor subsoiler trenching - YouTube

RE: Photo #3
A 2,700 pound bare weight tractor FEL will have a breakout force of ~~1,800 pounds~~, more than enough to loosen large rocks in photo. After large rocks are loose you can tow them behind the tractor with chains. Subsoiler or Middlebuster will plow through the small rocks fine. I do not see the need for a $7,000 tractor backhoe for your applications.

A 2,700 pound bare weight tractor will fit in a standard residential garage with room to spare.

A quality dealer, reasonably close, available for coaching, is important for tractor neophytes. Most new tractors are delivered with a glitch or two requiring correction. My Kubota dealer is six miles away. I feel my local dealer continues to add value to my equipment after seven years. Dealer proximity is less important for those experienced with tractors and qualified to perform their own maintenance.

Due to proximity, I would shop Deere first. Transporting a tractor for service is a costly operation.

 

[Teachu2]

We're in similar terrain. Recently had to dig a new leech system for the septic, and the plumbing contractor rented a Cat CTL. We needed to dig a 3' wide trench, 6'+ feet deep, 50 + feet long. We're 45 minutes drive from the rental yard, they charged $200 to drop it off and pick it up, plus the rental of $275 a day. Rented it for one day, they left it for 12 more - $475 total.

The difference between a 14k lb 100+HP and a 3500 lb CUT with a backhoe is immense. So is the driving experience - especially on slopes. Popped stumps out of the ground with ease, moved large landscaping rocks, and enjoyed the air-conditioned cab. Tall, wide brute of a machine, nimble but big and a high center of gravity. Excellent for what I needed it for, but if I needed to do water lines two feet deep, it would not be my first choice. A BX with a backhoe trenches for supply lines well, and a tracked walk-behind trencher is what I rented for sprinkler and hose bib trenching. The CTL would be cumbersome and disrupt a lot of soil needlessly.

 

[4570Man]

We're in similar terrain. Recently had to dig a new leech system for the septic, and the plumbing contractor rented a Cat CTL. We needed to dig a 3' wide trench, 6'+ feet deep, 50 + feet long. We're 45 minutes drive from the rental yard, they charged $200 to drop it off and pick it up, plus the rental of $275 a day. Rented it for one day, they left it for 12 more - $475 total.

The difference between a 14k lb 100+HP and a 3500 lb CUT with a backhoe is immense. So is the driving experience - especially on slopes. Popped stumps out of the ground with ease, moved large landscaping rocks, and enjoyed the air-conditioned cab. Tall, wide brute of a machine, nimble but big and a high center of gravity. Excellent for what I needed it for, but if I needed to do water lines two feet deep, it would not be my first choice. A BX with a backhoe trenches for supply lines well, and a tracked walk-behind trencher is what I rented for sprinkler and hose bib trenching. The CTL would be cumbersome and disrupt a lot of soil needlessly.

Are you sure it was a CTL? Compact track loader or skid steer with tracks? If so it’s a really poor tool for digging 6’ deep.

 

[crashz]

Maybe he meant Tractor Loader Backhoe (TLB)?

Those are some meaty looking rocks. A compact tractor will have a heck of a time loosening and removing those without a lot of manual labor involved too. A construction TLB will work circles around a compact, doing earthwork. Just don't ask it to mow.

If it were me, I would buy an older Case 580 or Ford 555, preferably with 4wd. Do the heavy work with it and then if warranted, trade down to a smaller machine when you feel the backhoe is no longer needed.

 

[Teachu2]

Maybe he meant Tractor Loader Backhoe (TLB)?

Those are some meaty looking rocks. A compact tractor will have a heck of a time loosening and removing those without a lot of manual labor involved too. A construction TLB will work circles around a compact, doing earthwork. Just don't ask it to mow.

If it were me, I would buy an older Case 580 or Ford 555, preferably with 4wd. Do the heavy work with it and then if warranted, trade down to a smaller machine when you feel the backhoe is no longer needed.

You are correct - doing too many things at once. Construction TLB- a Cat 450F in this case.

 

[searcyfarms]

if you have big rocks you will not be digging with a cut very well - i have few limestone rocks here and it took me 5 hours to dig a 30 foot trench with a 12 inch bucket wiht a 5000lb mini excavator - i will rent a large machine next time i was worn out from wrestling controls and trying to maneuver the machine to get hte proper leverage to move the rocks and none were more than a couple hundred lbs nor more than 3 foot wide by 8 inches thick - ridiculous waste of time

 

[Coach v]

A construction backhoe would be stored outside, as most are around here. Eventually, I will get a 2nd bigger shop or carport. If I buy a CUT, it will most likely go in the current shop.

I can do most wrenching myself as long as it is not computers/electronics.

The rock in pick #3 was two rock bars, one shovel and a lot of sweat and muscle. That was just a few days ago.

When we built the house, I subbed out some of the trenching. The guy took two boulders bigger than a compact car out, he had to trench around a third.

 

[Coach v]

I am a school teacher with more time (summers off) than money.

 

[Teachu2]

We grow 'em here, too.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

Those are some meaty looking rocks. A compact tractor will have a heck of a time loosening and removing those without a lot of manual labor involved too. A construction TLB will work circles around a compact, doing earthwork. Just don't ask it to mow.

If it were me, I would buy an older Case 580 or Ford 555, preferably with 4wd. Do the heavy work with it and then if warranted, trade down to a smaller machine when you feel the backhoe is no longer needed.

There's the RIGHT answer right there...

SR

 

[fried1765]

Maybe he meant Tractor Loader Backhoe (TLB)?

Those are some meaty looking rocks. A compact tractor will have a heck of a time loosening and removing those without a lot of manual labor involved too. A construction TLB will work circles around a compact, doing earthwork. Just don't ask it to mow.

If it were me, I would buy an older Case 580 or Ford 555, preferably with 4wd. Do the heavy work with it and then if warranted, trade down to a smaller machine when you feel the backhoe is no longer needed.

++++ on the Ford 555.

 

[spitter]

If you don't mind turning wrenches go for a case 580 with a cummins in it 90's to early 2,000 ,s . Easy to work on parts are easy to get through auto parts store. Used parts will be around for a long time. If you go the tractor route Ford 2120 probably will be the best all around easy to work on and parts or dealer is that[ close ] New Holland dealer. Just throughing ideas out .:drink:

 

[rScotty]

We are looking to buy our first tractor. We built our home about 10 years ago in the mountains of rural NE California at 3500' on about 3 sloped rocky treed acres in the woods.
.....SNIP...
I have been looking at used older 2x4 construction backhoes in the $10k range. I have not pulled the trigger as I worry about them being too big and too much work/problems.

I think a compact farm tractor would be more versatile, but worry about not having enough power/weight and they are 3x the price.

I have a Deere dealer about 25 miles from me. Closest Kubota dealer 2.5hrs. Branson, Mahrinda, Koiti, LS, New Holland dealers between 1 and 1.5 hours out.

I have been going in circles over decided and need some help. Which direction would you go?

We started out doing much the same thing as you are but 45 years ago..... We built a house in the mountains, & later bought a sweet compact 4wd tractor & loader. Nice, but a bit light for the work especially on slopes.
However, we wished we had bought it sooner.

Looking back on it, our tractor ownership has gone through 4 phases:

First was the compact 4wd tractor w/loader & blade. Wonderful thing & much better than doing things by hand, but powerwise not a whole lot different from what you can do by hand.... just way more convenient. Kind of expensive for us at the time.

Later we bought an older farm tractor and added a loader & wide front. Inexpensive, very powerful, very stable, very reliable....rather unwieldy though. Has PS (a must), a category II 3pt hitch + 3pt backhoe.

30 years later & retired, my wife bought us a new semicommercial TLB: a Kubota M59 with interchangeable cat. II 3pt/ frame-mounted backhoe. BH HAS A THUMB!!. We still use it everyday. Remarkably handy & crazy strong.
A flood wiped us out in 2013. As part of the rebuild we bought an older construction backhoe - a typical JD310G - to work alongside our M59. It is often used as a dumptruck, in the creek, or for really heavy rocks. No thumb :-(

So we have a lot of thoughts on comparisons if you have questions...
rScotty

 

[GSVette]

I bought a used 580D as my first big ‘tool’ as I knew that digging through the decomposed granite underlying my acreage was going to challenge (and likely defeat) most tractor mounted backhoes.

It is more expensive to fix and does require more frequent repair than the LS XR4155HC I bought a couple of years later but I wouldn’t be without it-the capabilities of an industrial TLB far outstrip any CUT or SCUT mounted hoe-particularly with an extenda-hoe version.

For me it all comes down to what you want to do and the ground conditions you want to do it in-in my case hundreds of feet of water lines, powercable and septic lines in the ground conditions I have drove me to an industrial 4x2 extenda-hoe.

YMMV

 

[TractorNH]

I have both a CUT (Mahindra 2655) and a 1970 Case 580CK 2 wheel drive (and a Deere 350C Dozer). I will say this, any CUT is NOT an industrial machine. I have my Mahindra primarily for snow removal, firewood, etc.

I say full size construction backhoe and here's why. We have beat the snot out of the Case and it always comes back for more. We bought it in 2000 for about $9k when building a house and putting in almost 1200' of driveway. Did sitework for another house in 2006 too. The first couple years we replaced just about every hydraulic hose on it as they blew but it's pretty reliable, always starts and runs well. We use it strictly for earthwork, digging stumps, etc. No snow removal. Just be prepared with any machine to fix things as they break. The only regret with the Case is that we wish it had 4wd and the extend-a-hoe would be nice. Even without 4wd we've never had it so stuck we couldn't get it out with the loader or backhoe.

As far as electronics on the old machines...we forgot the key for the Case one day when we were building. Started it with a screwdriver across the starter. No electronics at all there.

Some people will say keep it as long as you need it and then trade for something else but I have a problem losing the versatility of having a backhoe and a dozer when I feel like I've got my money's worth out of them. We probably don't even put 50 hours on the dozer or backhoe per year but they don't owe me anything and it sure is nice to have when you need it.

 

[dodge man]

Through my work I am around construction equipment all the time, and everyone is spot on that any CUT tractor just won't be the same as a piece of construction equipment. The problem is I can't image having something that big on my property, I also live on three acres. Like others have said, you can use it for a period of time and sell it later and get something smaller.

 

[rScotty]

Through my work I am around construction equipment all the time, and everyone is spot on that any CUT tractor just won't be the same as a piece of construction equipment. The problem is I can't image having something that big on my property, I also live on three acres. Like others have said, you can use it for a period of time and sell it later and get something smaller.

Being handy in small areas without tearing things up describes why we got a medium size Kubota TLB - the M59. Very precise and maneuverable. 980 hrs on ours now. Good side hill stability. Plus being about 60% as strong as a full size backhoe - which we also have, but use the M59 most of the time. I could go on and on about how well it works. Lots of features.... It has a thumb, turbo, quick change buckets on both ends, 6 speeds F&R, and a cat. II 3pt as well if needed.
Kubota makes even smaller TLBs. They are pricey but beginning to appear on the used market. The L39 still gets a lot of good reviews. Nice size for a few acres & landscaping.
rScotty