DPF and Emission Controls vs Models

[rScotty]

There becomes a point of diminishing returns.

I lived and commuted in Los Angeles. I was originally thrilled with the EPA and pollution control and regulations. It did make a difference in the air quality.

Now, they’re overreaching, taking options away from the consumer and making purchasing and financial decisions for us by causing most engine driven machines to be way more expensive than they should be or not an option at all.

Mike

I remember the old days with city smog and smoke-belching factories....but no EPA big brother either.
The EPA began over-reaching from the beginning; that's the price of dealing with an established problem.
Today it's either EPA or Smog. Pick your poison.

Or we could just accept rational self-restraint. Does that seem possible?

 

[pmsmechanic]

As I get older, I seem to have less tolerance when it comes to “dirty” air. The truth is, it’s much more pleasant running tier 4 (and 5) equipment. With 1,000s of hours under my belt running said equipment, I’ve never had a single emissions related failure.

View attachment 806709
2023 Cummins tier 5

That's interesting because 2 of my mechanic friends tell me that over 50% of warranty work on new tractors is emissions related. It's interesting too that preemissions highway tractors command a premium on the used market because they have considerably lower operating costs. I could go on with more examples but you should get the picture by now.

And just for the record I'm not against clean engines. I'm very against the present way of meeting emissions standards. Where the customer pays for poor engineering with poorer fuel economy and reduced engine reliability. There has to be a better way.

 

[jyoutz]

EPA is the most out of control agency in government (and think what an extreme that is!) When they tightened the screws on small diesel cars 8 or 10 years ago those vehicles were contributing less than 1/10 of one % of the traffic pollution in the US. VW should have been given a whistleblower award for exposing the EPA and temporarily outsmarting them. Instead it cost VW north of $15billion. Appear to report to no one and throw on rules just because they get away with it. Maybe the 2024 election will put them under control??

EPA operates on laws established by Congress. The EPA is of course part of the executive branch, but like all executive branch agencies, the laws established by Congress have more effect on policies than the occupant of the White House. Some members of Congress like to claim otherwise, but that’s simply politics. Regulation rule making can only be stretched to the extent that congressional acts provide for. People who disagree with federal agency policies need to be contacting their congressional representatives and senators.

 

[jyoutz]

The often repeated idea that these systems are trouble free is so false that it needs to be called out as an outright deception. Anyone who has been writing these things for the long term knows that they are extremely problematic and the only “reliable” thing about them is that you can count on them failing within 5-7 years. Repairs are not affordable and many desire to bypass the system when faced with the cost. My Kubota regens every 16 hours or so, I run it at very high rpm.

Mine regens every 60+ hours. But what’s important to me is that I no longer get a sinus headache with my newer T4 tractor. With my old pre-emissions tractor, I would get a headache and even feel sick for a day whenever I operated the tractor more than 1 hour.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

I will admit, I enjoy how cleanly the tractor operates. Whether I’ll feel that way after a few regens, is yet to be seen. At this rate, I may see one regen per year

 

[rScotty]

That's interesting because 2 of my mechanic friends tell me that over 50% of warranty work on new tractors is emissions related. It's interesting too that preemissions highway tractors command a premium on the used market because they have considerably lower operating costs. I could go on with more examples but you should get the picture by now.

And just for the record I'm not against clean engines. I'm very against the present way of meeting emissions standards. Where the customer pays for poor engineering with poorer fuel economy and reduced engine reliability. There has to be a better way.

I agree. The present state of emission system design seems like the engineers just copied each other instead of thinking the problem through. Using higher RPM to make more paticles which can be trapped and then burnt is questionable arithmetic. It still sums to more particles with more surface area & unknown biology - but has the downside of burning more fuel to get there.

This emissions snafu reminds me of the era when cars were transitioning from drum brakes to disk brakes. Drum brakes had poor reliability, difficult service, poor leverage, trapped particles, and couldn't get rid of their heat - all of which made drum brakes big, heavy, complex and expensive.
Disk brakes were better in all ways, and braked better too. But other than on race and sports cars it still took 20 years to even start to make the change over. And then for the longest time we still made vehicles with disk fronts and drum rears. Twice the complexity for zero gain.

rScotty

 

[Rdrcr]

I remember the old days with city smog and smoke-belching factories....but no EPA big brother either.
The EPA began over-reaching from the beginning; that's the price of dealing with an established problem.
Today it's either EPA or Smog. Pick your poison.

Or we could just accept rational self-restraint. Does that seem possible?

There certainly isn't a perfect solution to this problem. But, at this time, I'd go with self-restraint and let the consumer decide on what direction they would like to pursue. Let the best argument win...without government force or restriction.

Mike

 

[Paystar]

What offends me is they force unreliable emission controls on our small homeowner lawn mowers, yet back when I used to live in the city of SSM which has Algoma Steel, the inside of my house and my garage were covered in black graphite dust.
But you don't see the Ministry (EPA for you Americans) going after them.

And trust me, I have worked in there and witnessed it.....they wait for the sun to go down, then the black cloud is released when Joe public doesn't see it.

 

[rScotty]

There certainly isn't a perfect solution to this problem. But, at this time, I'd go with self-restraint and let the consumer decide on what direction they would like to pursue. Let the best argument win...without government force or restriction.

Mike

I would tend to agree - except we already tried it and it didn't work. Letting individuals decide what direction they would like to pursue without government force or restriction is exactly how the world got into the whole smog and dirty air problem in the first place. I wish it weren't true.

The problem seems to be that without regulations a single person or company is free to pollute as much of everyone's air/water/land as they want. Basically, that's a dictatorship.

What offends me is they force unreliable emission controls on our small homeowner lawn mowers, yet back when I used to live in the city of SSM which has Algoma Steel, the inside of my house and my garage were covered in black graphite dust.
But you don't see the Ministry (EPA for you Americans) going after them.

And trust me, I have worked in there and witnessed it.....they wait for the sun to go down, then the black cloud is released when Joe public doesn't see it.

Any group of citizens affected by some night-time black cloud just has to get together, document the problem, sign a formal complaint, and deliver it to the press and lawmakers. That usually gets some action, but people don't like to do that - they prefer to get some organization to do it for them.

Maybe that is how we ended up with these small stupid regulations. We were being lazy, so we invented the EPA and then inflicted it on ourselves.

rScotty

 

[Rdrcr]

I would tend to agree - except we already tried it and it didn't work. Letting individuals decide what direction they would like to pursue without government force or restriction is exactly how the world got into the whole smog and dirty air problem in the first place. I wish it weren't true.

The problem seems to be that without regulations a single person or company is free to pollute as much of everyone's air/water/land as they want. Basically, that's a dictatorship.

rScotty

I thought a government and/or a government leader telling everyone what to do, how to live and what to buy is precisely the definition of a dictatorship. Right?
So it's okay if its the government, but not okay if its the individual?

Plus, you already have rising pollution in many developing/developed nations that we cannot control. Or, do you wish the EPA had control over all 195 nations worldwide?

I'm okay with some commonsense regulation. But, we are way way beyond that at this point in the US.

Mike

 

[rScotty]

I thought a government and/or a government leader telling everyone what to do, how to live and what to buy is precisely the definition of a dictatorship. Right?
So it's okay if its the government, but not okay if its the individual?

Plus, you already have rising pollution in many developing/developed nations that we cannot control. Or, do you wish the EPA had control over all 195 nations worldwide?

I'm okay with some commonsense regulation. But, we are way way beyond that at this point in the US.

Mike

I don't like regulations either. In the long run, I think the only thing that works is for people to change how they think and do things. That change comes from within.

Common sense regulation does work for one-on-one problems - and that makes it seem workable.

But it doesn't do so well when we are up against something where one entity can mess things up for a lot of people. I don't know the answer, but even I can see that something has has to change.
Maybe common sense isn't as common as we once hoped it was.
rScotty

 

[Bentrim]

Food for thought.
Can the EPA make laws?
They are not part of the cabinet but are advisor to the president. At least when I went to school we were told there were 3 branches of government. Executive implements and enforces law, Judicial who reviews laws to see if they are legal, legislative who makes the laws. Or has a fourth branch been created that can make and enforce laws ie EPA, OSHA, etc?

The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is an independent executive agency of the United States federal government tasked with environmental protection matters.[2] President Richard Nixon proposed the establishment of EPA on July 9, 1970; it began operation on December 2, 1970, after Nixon signed an executive order.[3] The order establishing the EPA was ratified by committee hearings in the House and Senate.

The power of the Executive Branch is vested in the President of the United States, who also acts as head of state and Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. The President is responsible for implementing and enforcing the laws written by Congress and, to that end, appoints the heads of the federal agencies, including the Cabinet. The Vice President is also part of the Executive Branch, ready to assume the Presidency should the need arise.

The Cabinet and independent federal agencies are responsible for the day-to-day enforcement and administration of federal laws.

A dog has freedom until he runs out of leash. We had freedom until we were "regulated".

 

[dcarman]

Which Kubota models tractors have DPF filtering and which do not? Is there a list or simple tabular reference as to what models do and do not have DPF filtering -- both filtering and fluid requirements ?

I am hearing that 25.5HP is the threshold. What about BX2670 and 2670-1 for example that are so close to that threshold?

Is there a concise reference one could look at to determine which ones have these ? Does Tier IV and variations on the tier terminology tell you ?

AH but times they are a changing! Check out the new bobcat telehandlers such as the t619, 74 HP and no DEF . The engine meets Tier 4 regulations without a diesel particulate filter (DPF) or selective catalyst reduction. That should eliminate a lot of down time and hassles. That DEF has become a swear word for most diesel owners. It took the reliability out of diesels and created many downtime headaches. Hopefully the tech will move into all the diesel engine manufacturers.
Please lets not get into politics here or I'd have to call DEF a plot from them other guys!

 

[5030]

Don't come to my barn then. Every time I fire up my old iron my eyes water with tears of joy....but you might think they are watering from all the fumes, LOL

If it don't smoke, it's broke.

Diesel exhaust is Hillbilly Incense....

 

[rScotty]

AH but times they are a changing! Check out the new bobcat telehandlers such as the t619, 74 HP and no DEF . The engine meets Tier 4 regulations without a diesel particulate filter (DPF) or selective catalyst reduction. That should eliminate a lot of down time and hassles. That DEF has become a swear word for most diesel owners. It took the reliability out of diesels and created many downtime headaches. Hopefully the tech will move into all the diesel engine manufacturers.
Please lets not get into politics here or I'd have to call DEF a plot from them other guys!

It will be nice when all the new diesels meet Tier 4 without DPF or DEF at all.

As for DEF being a swear word for most diesel owners I wonder if you meant to write DPF and regen instead of DEF? I hear swearing on TBN at DPF and regen, but not at DEF.
We have that sprinter diesel engine on our RV. It has DEF and no issue for 7 years now. That's common with this same sprinter diesel engine that half the utility vans and many RVs use. No diesel fumes at all.The exhaust pipe still looks new. I don't follow the other makes, maybe the reliability depends on the manufacturer.

 

[milkman636]

I grew up watching morning smog rising over metro Detroit from across the lake. Factory jobs were everywhere around the area during that time. Then NAFTA and favored trade with China came in and manufacturing fled across our borders. Trade policy should get more credit for cleaning things up than the EPA in my opinion. The downside is now an average kid is funnelled into huge debt in hopes of getting wages equivalent to he could find in the same area when we made stuff.

 

[JWR]

EPA operates on laws established by Congress. The EPA is of course part of the executive branch, but like all executive branch agencies, the laws established by Congress have more effect on policies than the occupant of the White House. Some members of Congress like to claim otherwise, but that’s simply politics. Regulation rule making can only be stretched to the extent that congressional acts provide for. People who disagree with federal agency policies need to be contacting their congressional representatives and senators.

Technically true but not the way things really work. First of all, having ANY effect on what the EPA does or does not do via contacting our elected reps is similar to peeing in the ocean to raise the water levels. Sure if it gets TOO serious and TOO close home we can go into panic mode and climb on the elected reps the best we can. Rarely do individuals have any effect unless they are HIGHLY connected. You have farmers in Appalachia literally afraid to dredge some gravel out of a creek bed to patch a farm road with the spot in question over half a mile from the nearest border of (and inside) the farm. Utterly absurd and out of control that ANY agency has honest hard working people living in fear of their own government !!! Massive examples of far worse EPA overreach are numerous and in every state in the union. Without a dissertation on those (we can all look them up) the worst habit of the EPA's behavior history is that they invent jurisdiction and assume authority every time they get a chance unless specifically prohibited by law -- not the other way around. Like 98% of the grief in this country it is driven by a tiny % of PITA activists, not by the "silent majority." Hard to exaggerate the stupidity if you are in farming, agriculture or small business.
END of SOAPBOX. I'll be quiet.

 

[Rdrcr]

Diesel exhaust is Hillbilly Incense....

Mike

 

[jyoutz]

Technically true but not the way things really work. First of all, having ANY effect on what the EPA does or does not do via contacting our elected reps is similar to peeing in the ocean to raise the water levels. Sure if it gets TOO serious and TOO close home we can go into panic mode and climb on the elected reps the best we can. Rarely do individuals have any effect unless they are HIGHLY connected. You have farmers in Appalachia literally afraid to dredge some gravel out of a creek bed to patch a farm road with the spot in question over half a mile from the nearest border of (and inside) the farm. Utterly absurd and out of control that ANY agency has honest hard working people living in fear of their own government !!! Massive examples of far worse EPA overreach are numerous and in every state in the union. Without a dissertation on those (we can all look them up) the worst habit of the EPA's behavior history is that they invent jurisdiction and assume authority every time they get a chance unless specifically prohibited by law -- not the other way around. Like 98% of the grief in this country it is driven by a tiny % of PITA activists, not by the "silent majority." Hard to exaggerate the stupidity if you are in farming, agriculture or small business.
END of SOAPBOX. I'll be quiet.

I agree with your statements, but still remind you that Congress makes the laws that provide the sideboards for agency regulations. I work in forestry and we have to get the water quality permits for forest road work and bridges so I understand. But EPA has delegated the clean air and water acts enforcement to each state, so permitting and enforcement are handled by state agencies, so I have no doubt that each state has slightly different interpretations.

 

[Sid Post]

For DPF-related concerns with larger engines, I'll throw out the Massey Ferguson 4707 with its 70HP engine. This tractor doesn't use DPF and is a common rail and DOC (catalyst) tractor.

The larger tractors in this same class from Massey do you use DPF. There are kits out of Brazil that will let you take a 4707 and raise the motor Hp to 110HP or points in between to avoid DPF with the more powerful engines, though this will violate the warranty and TIER 4 requirement.