The guy that put the engine internals together says "The rings are not seated yet end the smoking is normal. Just give it a couple hours of work"

[PA-Kubota]

you got screwed... he's feeding you a line of BS

 

[Barker806]

Just throwing this out there ... Valve guide seals will do the same thing. He may not have put any on the valve stems. I had a JD 5205 that had a bad set of valve guide seals and it looked like a crime scene when you ran it. Smoke and oil everywhere! I lapped the valves and changed the seals and it has been fine for 10 years.

 

[Big-Foot]

Hi guys…
I’ve built many engines and was an Engineman (diesel mechanic) in the Navy. I agree with what a number of the other wrenches here had to say in regard to proper break-in under load & oil pressure. A couple things I have to add are -
1) We have no idea how much assembly lubricant is trapped in the oil filter. Since the engine is not getting hot enough to dissolve the assembly lube trapped there, it is likely causing a restriction. Swap to a fresh oil filter and after a couple hours of proper break-in, dump the oil and filter again and put in your favorite 15w40.
2) Don’t idle that engine anymore. You may have already damaged the rings and bores by not putting enough cylinder pressure in those bores to seat the rings. The rings may have been “rocking” in their grooves. That will take the edge off of them.
—
Finally - after 10 hours, if she’s still smoking, I would do a proper leakdown test to see if the rings are the issue..

Regards - Randy

P.S. Most all oil pressure gauges are connected downstream of the filter, which is why you may have a low oil pressure reading at idle If the filter media is loaded with assembly lube.

 

[daleb]

I recently rebuilt a 350 Chevy engine (my 4th engine rebuild). Machine shop advised me that rings aren't seated by RPM or miles any more, but heat (cast iron vs. chrome moly?). I was told to run it at 2000 to 2500 rpm and let it get hot (hotter than normal run temp) for about 15 minutes

 

[deezler]

You got issues. Sorry to say but a full rebuild is probably in order again.

No thermostat? get the F$%^ out of here with that nonsense.

I see a lot of old school thinking about "seating the rings". Mostly a wives tail here in 2023. The only thing a poor break-in will do is lead to gradual oil consumption issues over time, not really a big deal. And has nothing to do with your oil pressure issue. Your engine is smoking because it's burning a lot of oil in cylinder - most likely from the valves, not a piston ring issue. It'll probably get worse, not better.

Rebuild, with a different mechanic. Sorry.

 

[boatmoter]

The engine only has about 30 or 45 minutes of runtime on it right now and that is basically been slow and fast idle. It is boiling black oil out of the exhaust manifold that runs down the engine. He said since it is Florida that it is not necessary to put a thermostat in it. I noticed that it never warmed up more than 110 or 120°. I put the thermostat in it and let it warm up to normal operating temperatures. When it warms up to normal temperatures the low oil pressure alarm goes off when the idle goes below 1000 RPMs. This coincides with a manual oil pressure gauge that I put on the side of the engine. We trailered it over to his shop and he said that the oil pressure is normal that it should be about 10 psi per 1000 RPMs. So at 1000 RPMs an oil pressure of 10 psi would be OK. He suggested using Lucas oil treatment and thicker oil. It currently has 15 W 40 oil in it. In his defense he ran the tractor around the property for a short time while riding the brakes to put some stress on the engine and it did seem like it was smoking less. The oil pressure issue remains the same. So my question is what is a good oil pressure at an idle on a brand new engine. I understand that a new engine will smoke when it is first started. How much is too much how long before it should stop or go down to the minimum. I am certainly not an engine rebuilder but I have done everything on this tractor except for actually assembling the internals of the engine. I feel a little bit uncomfortable about putting a big bush hog on it and running it for a couple hours without checking with someone else to see how they feel. What do you think. Thanks for your time and attention. OK



Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear
-New Water Pump
-New Radiator



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

when I was building & repairing diesels for a used tractor dealer I used to use comet or ajax and put a half handful down the intake while running,it lightly sands and seats in the rings on new builds, do it 3-4 times

 

[oneal hicks]

The Mechanic needs to lick this calf over smoke is a bad problem (may not have oraneted the rings correctly) however the oil pressure drop you can't live with for long.The repairs should be at his expense!

 

[pmsmechanic]

when I was building & repairing diesels for a used tractor dealer I used to use comet or ajax and put a half handful down the intake while running,it lightly sands and seats in the rings on new builds, do it 3-4 times

When I went to school I was told to only do this is you can't get the rings to seat.

 

[rocco611]

You can run it for a while and see if the rings come in, but the oil pressure issue is not going to change with break in. Normal oil pressure cold but low at warm idle usually indicates too much clearance somewhere in the engine. As the engine warms up the clearances increase and the oil gets thinner, pressure drops. You could pull the exhaust manifold, you will find oil in the exhaust port or ports of the cylinder or cylinders that are passing oil, you could pull the pan, check the bearings and the crank. pull the head check the valve guides and seals, pull the piston or pistons check ring gap, cylinder condition. If your not a mechanic and have to pay someone to do all this, you may be throwing good money after bad. In that case I would pull the engine and have a competent shop to go through it.

 

[aherring]

Interestingly enough I rebuilt this engine on a 7610 almost a year ago for a friend of mine. Most of these engines have been sleeved, as was the case with ours (and yours too it looks like). I'll spare you all the details, but in the end we found out the hard way that the sleeves were causing problems. After cutting down the block for a sleeve, there isn't much material left in that cylinder wall. This thin wall was also suffering from pitting caused by old coolant, and was allowing coolant and oil to mix. I am including a picture of the block below, showing (in pen marks) where the separation was. It is a thin gap, but this was causing it to throw black oil/coolant out the exhaust pipe, very similar to what you have going on.

We sourced a completely new bottom end (block/crank/pistons) from the UK as we could not find a block in our area that was in decent shape to use.

 

[sportscarclinic]

... I am NOT "The Engine Guy"
...The owner wants it done completely and correct. I volunteered to take the project. (not my best decision ever...lol)

For starters, let me say you are "the engine guy" in this scenario.

Former shop owner here, now a licensed general contractor. A lot of my work nowadays involves bailing out homeowners who thought they could be their own GC, or previously hired someone who was hopelessly unqualified to accept the responsibility of that role in their project, leaving them with a mess on their hands. In that latter case, we almost always end up tearing out the previous work and starting over. You probably see where this is headed.

There are so many red flags here from a professional engine builder's perspective that it's somewhat pointless to start enumerating them. The bottom line is you didn't, and cannot at this point deliver an engine "done completely and correct" without again completely rebuilding the engine.

When you deliver an engine to a machine shop, you must tell them precisely what to do. No reputable machine shop that I've ever used, and that's many, will "do whatever it needs" when you drop off an short block, unless they are being hired to fully perform the rebuild. One operation that was obviously neglected was boring and honing the block to accept oversized pistons. There's very little chance that a hard working tractor engine didn't require as much just from previous age/use wear, but it was certainly required on at least the one cylinder that had a bent rod, which would have caused excessive wear on one side of the cylinder bore making it oval, not round. Replacing the standard size pistons was a waste of money.

Did the engine assembler you hired Plastigage the rod and main journals to check the oil clearance? Probably not. Did you even fit oversize main bearing shells to match the .040 undersize crank?

This is a bad situation for you and your friend, hopefully you can salvage it. I'd recommend looking into buying a rebuilt engine with a warranty. Try JASPER Engines, Inc. The days of cost effectively rebuilding engines are long gone. Qualified machine shop work that's worth what you're going pay (a lot!) is hard to find these days, and usually already way over-subscribed taking care of the shops in the area.

Good luck.

 

[pacosperson]

Doesn't sound right to me, but I've never done it myself. Just watched videos of rebuilt other engines are they are looking for at least 40psi of oil at cranking speed before they'll turn the fuel on and try to start it.

I agree, those bores do not look ready for assembly. That does not explain the oil pressure.

 

[sixdogs]

This is a great thread.

 

[Gord Baker]

The engine only has about 30 or 45 minutes of runtime on it right now and that is basically been slow and fast idle. It is boiling black oil out of the exhaust manifold that runs down the engine. He said since it is Florida that it is not necessary to put a thermostat in it. I noticed that it never warmed up more than 110 or 120°. I put the thermostat in it and let it warm up to normal operating temperatures. When it warms up to normal temperatures the low oil pressure alarm goes off when the idle goes below 1000 RPMs. This coincides with a manual oil pressure gauge that I put on the side of the engine. We trailered it over to his shop and he said that the oil pressure is normal that it should be about 10 psi per 1000 RPMs. So at 1000 RPMs an oil pressure of 10 psi would be OK. He suggested using Lucas oil treatment and thicker oil. It currently has 15 W 40 oil in it. In his defense he ran the tractor around the property for a short time while riding the brakes to put some stress on the engine and it did seem like it was smoking less. The oil pressure issue remains the same. So my question is what is a good oil pressure at an idle on a brand new engine. I understand that a new engine will smoke when it is first started. How much is too much how long before it should stop or go down to the minimum. I am certainly not an engine rebuilder but I have done everything on this tractor except for actually assembling the internals of the engine. I feel a little bit uncomfortable about putting a big bush hog on it and running it for a couple hours without checking with someone else to see how they feel. What do you think. Thanks for your time and attention. OK



Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear
-New Water Pump
-New Radiator



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

It sounds to me like they possibly did not De-Glaze the cylinders and you are left with a mess. An old timer I knew poured a bit of Baking Soda I believe, in the intake to help scour the Cylinder walls so the rings would seat. All tractors should have a Thermostat IMH, and driving around with the Brakes on tells me he had no idea of rebuilding an engine. A Diesel should have much higher Oil Pressure. 10 psi is NOT OK, at idle. Check the Crankcase Ventilation system to be sure it is venting (top of valve cover). Remove the oil Fill cap when it is at a fast idle to check for Blow-by. 40 weight oil for a Diesel is likely recommended. I hope the photo of the Cylinders was Before rebuild. It likely ran better then. The Owners/Operators Manual should specify correct Oil Pressure. If he didn't have a proper Ring Compressor, he may have broken one or more rings while installing Pistons. You have spent a ton of money on that Tractor and deserve much better.
I suspect that the new Crank Bearings were not oversized sufficient for the grind resulting in low Oil Pressure or some part was overlooked. You should have 25-40 PSI. Good Luck!

 

[LD1]

Burning oil is not an oil pressure (or lack of) problem. Basically you have two issues at hand......low oil pressure and burning oil.

Burning oil can either come from rings (not seated, improper gap, etc) or from valve seals. Compression and/or leak down test would be helpful.

The low oil pressure is likely bearing clearance issues.

I see that you mentioned you had the crank ground....but you never said how much? And I assume you got the appropriate bearings to match? But still need checked.

You referenced that you saw him check main bearings, and they were within the tolerance in the manual....but were they favoring the loose end of that tolerance? Because honestly....~10ish PSI of oil pressure at 800RPM is probably ALSO within the spec of the manual....just at the lower end.

While I am not gonna comment on the quality of machine work based on some photographs.....because pictures rarely represent reality.....there are several red flags as already mentioned. Like the no t-stat, and suggesting using snake oil as a fix. And not knowing the block specifically....0.040 over concerns me since you didnt mention anything about checking the cylinder wall thickness (ultrasonic).

Sadly....if it were mine I'd be tearing it apart and inspecting as I went....and see just what went wrong. I know everyone is suggesting the builder be the one to eat this, or figure out what the issue is....but I honestly wouldnt trust him at this point. Find another reputable builder and see what he determines/finds. And depending on what he finds would determine my next step as to recourse with the current builder.

 

[Gord Baker]

The engine only has about 30 or 45 minutes of runtime on it right now and that is basically been slow and fast idle. It is boiling black oil out of the exhaust manifold that runs down the engine. He said since it is Florida that it is not necessary to put a thermostat in it. I noticed that it never warmed up more than 110 or 120°. I put the thermostat in it and let it warm up to normal operating temperatures. When it warms up to normal temperatures the low oil pressure alarm goes off when the idle goes below 1000 RPMs. This coincides with a manual oil pressure gauge that I put on the side of the engine. We trailered it over to his shop and he said that the oil pressure is normal that it should be about 10 psi per 1000 RPMs. So at 1000 RPMs an oil pressure of 10 psi would be OK. He suggested using Lucas oil treatment and thicker oil. It currently has 15 W 40 oil in it. In his defense he ran the tractor around the property for a short time while riding the brakes to put some stress on the engine and it did seem like it was smoking less. The oil pressure issue remains the same. So my question is what is a good oil pressure at an idle on a brand new engine. I understand that a new engine will smoke when it is first started. How much is too much how long before it should stop or go down to the minimum. I am certainly not an engine rebuilder but I have done everything on this tractor except for actually assembling the internals of the engine. I feel a little bit uncomfortable about putting a big bush hog on it and running it for a couple hours without checking with someone else to see how they feel. What do you think. Thanks for your time and attention. OK



Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear
-New Water Pump
-New Radiator



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

 

[LD1]

When you deliver an engine to a machine shop, you must tell them precisely what to do. No reputable machine shop that I've ever used, and that's many, will "do whatever it needs" when you drop off an short block, unless they are being hired to fully perform the rebuild.

I gotta disagree unless I misunderstand. But that is exactly what I have always done....

Drop off a scored crank.....I have no idea if it needs .005, .010, .020, etc.....I dont wanna jump right to .020 if .010 will clean it up. But also dont wanna say .010 if it leaves scoring.

Same for cylinder walls, head and block deck.

Take just what it needs to clean up.....then next common increment for parts. (IE....takes 0.017 to clean cylinder.....go .020 over).

Don't order rotating assembly parts til after machine work is done so I know what size (over/under) to order parts

 

[Riding a Relic]

The engine only has about 30 or 45 minutes of runtime on it right now and that is basically been slow and fast idle. It is boiling black oil out of the exhaust manifold that runs down the engine. He said since it is Florida that it is not necessary to put a thermostat in it. I noticed that it never warmed up more than 110 or 120°. I put the thermostat in it and let it warm up to normal operating temperatures. When it warms up to normal temperatures the low oil pressure alarm goes off when the idle goes below 1000 RPMs. This coincides with a manual oil pressure gauge that I put on the side of the engine. We trailered it over to his shop and he said that the oil pressure is normal that it should be about 10 psi per 1000 RPMs. So at 1000 RPMs an oil pressure of 10 psi would be OK. He suggested using Lucas oil treatment and thicker oil. It currently has 15 W 40 oil in it. In his defense he ran the tractor around the property for a short time while riding the brakes to put some stress on the engine and it did seem like it was smoking less. The oil pressure issue remains the same. So my question is what is a good oil pressure at an idle on a brand new engine. I understand that a new engine will smoke when it is first started. How much is too much how long before it should stop or go down to the minimum. I am certainly not an engine rebuilder but I have done everything on this tractor except for actually assembling the internals of the engine. I feel a little bit uncomfortable about putting a big bush hog on it and running it for a couple hours without checking with someone else to see how they feel. What do you think. Thanks for your time and attention. OK



Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear
-New Water Pump
-New Radiator



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

The thermostat is helping to control the flow of coolant through the radiator. If coolant flows through too fast the coolant doesn't have time to stay in the radiator long enough to cool. It not only regulates temperature, but also regulates flow. The engine needs to be hot enough to burn the fuel, the thermostat does play a part in this process.

 

[wojofam7431]

Did they bother to check bearing clearances or did they just put the bearings in the saddles and drop the crank in? I'm betting the clearances are to big, Cam bearing clearances that are to big will cause low oil oil pressure too. As far as smoking goes most modern day rings break in pretty quick unless they are chrome either they finish honed the cylinders wrong or your builder broke a ring or didn't stager the gaps like they should have. Do a leak down test or compression test. Leak down will tell you more.

 

[ttouring]

The engine only has about 30 or 45 minutes of runtime on it right now and that is basically been slow and fast idle. It is boiling black oil out of the exhaust manifold that runs down the engine. He said since it is Florida that it is not necessary to put a thermostat in it. I noticed that it never warmed up more than 110 or 120°. I put the thermostat in it and let it warm up to normal operating temperatures. When it warms up to normal temperatures the low oil pressure alarm goes off when the idle goes below 1000 RPMs. This coincides with a manual oil pressure gauge that I put on the side of the engine. We trailered it over to his shop and he said that the oil pressure is normal that it should be about 10 psi per 1000 RPMs. So at 1000 RPMs an oil pressure of 10 psi would be OK. He suggested using Lucas oil treatment and thicker oil. It currently has 15 W 40 oil in it. In his defense he ran the tractor around the property for a short time while riding the brakes to put some stress on the engine and it did seem like it was smoking less. The oil pressure issue remains the same. So my question is what is a good oil pressure at an idle on a brand new engine. I understand that a new engine will smoke when it is first started. How much is too much how long before it should stop or go down to the minimum. I am certainly not an engine rebuilder but I have done everything on this tractor except for actually assembling the internals of the engine. I feel a little bit uncomfortable about putting a big bush hog on it and running it for a couple hours without checking with someone else to see how they feel. What do you think. Thanks for your time and attention. OK



Sorry I should have included that information from the beginning.
-Bored 040 over
-Machined Crank
-New Pistons all
-New Rods all (one was bent)
-New Rings
-New Injectors
-New Valves
-New Guides
-New Oil Pump
-New Cam Bearings
-Lifters looked perfect just cleaned
-Push rods checked and re-used
-New Idler timing Gear
-New Water Pump
-New Radiator



I dealt with the machine shop dropped and picked up. The machine shop got the Reliant rebuild kit and did the cam bearings, the rings were installed when I got the pistons in the boxes. They said everything was correct and ready for assembly. I have done mechanical work since I can remember and do pretty well on any project BUT, I wanted an experience builder to actually put it together. I have put engines together but I am NOT "The Engine Guy"

The guy that put the internals together came to my shop with his father and put it together. I had everything cleaned, labeled, and laid out on a table like a surgery before the doctor gets there. I watched them and waited on his every request (tools, bolts, supplies...etc). He seemed to know what he was doing. No big red flags on the build.

Did you plastagauged the main and rod bearings ?? 10 psi oil pressure on engine idle is a little to low. Of course thicker oil is gonna give you a little higher pressure. The red flag for me was the therstat conversation. Cooler engines have a little higher pressure if keep them on the cool side. Being able to put an engine together doesn't necessarily make one a mechanic !