Why so much tongue weight on 22' car hauler trailers?

[ericm979]

If those trucks had headlights like a newer Tesla they could take a minute and lower them on the touch screen using the headlight settings. Or if the US would catch up with EU they would automatically adjust (adaptive headlights) and cut the light going into the oncoming drivers eyes without having to do anything since it is already equipped.

A lot of cars and trucks have a dial on the dash that you can use to lower the headlights. Most of the ones I've owned for the last 15 years have had them. And we do have automatically adjusting (up and down) headlights here. My wife's 2008 model VW has them so its not just on expensive cars.

 

[BrkMstr]

I'm in the market for a 22' car hauler for my Kubota. What I've been noticing is that most of the trailer length is in front of the axles, putting a lot of weight on the hitch. What am I missing here? My last 22' trailer had the same problem and I recently sold it. I was constantly being flashed at night for high pointing headlights. Any manufacturers that put their axles a little more towards the front?

Placement of load, obviously weight needs to be on trailer tires, hard to get one trailer to fit all vehicle lengths - sometimes placement requires backing on trailer - equipment / buckets up front seem to balance a little easier, if you are new get a weight scale hitch, or simply use a scale and experiment, placement of load and following GVW guidelines work - overloading the hitch is not a good idea, it not only can cause serious handling problems it can easily fail under hard braking / maneuvering

 

[CliffordK]

If those trucks had headlights like a newer Tesla they could take a minute and lower them on the touch screen using the headlight settings. Or if the US would catch up with EU they would automatically adjust (adaptive headlights) and cut the light going into the oncoming drivers eyes without having to do anything since it is already equipped.

The Tesla Cybertruck also has adaptive self leveling air suspension. So, squatting on the rear end should not be an issue. Also, the extra weight of the vehicle should make towing nice (as long as one isn't towing across the country).

The RAM 1500 Limited has had air suspension for quite some time, but at a premium price. Apparently it is now a factory add-on option for most other RAM 1500 pickups.

I rented a Chevy 1500 about 2 years ago and towed my trailer with it briefly. I was impressed that it didn't sag.

 

[sd455dan]

A lot of cars and trucks have a dial on the dash that you can use to lower the headlights. Most of the ones I've owned for the last 15 years have had them. And we do have automatically adjusting (up and down) headlights here. My wife's 2008 model VW has them so its not just on expensive cars.

Yeah but the newest headlight system (adaptive) can do much more than just raise and lower the beam. They control individual high output LEDs. The matrix lights on my Model Y can actually spell words with the lights and that is different than just raising or lowering the entire beam. It allows selective dimming in the light pattern, but as I posted before the law does not allow the system to be active in the US.

 

[Joe1]

It seems that you have the wrong truck, not the wrong trailer. You may need to go up to a heavier duty truck to alleviate your problem. Good tongue weight is essential, or your trailer will be unmanageable and will be steering your truck. If you have the room. you may be able to move the tractor back a little on the trailer to shift some of the weight off the tongue. Also, if the trailer is not level and tips down at the hitch, more weight shifts to the tongue.

 

[Donnybrookfarms]

I'm in the market for a 22' car hauler for my Kubota. What I've been noticing is that most of the trailer length is in front of the axles, putting a lot of weight on the hitch. What am I missing here? My last 22' trailer had the same problem and I recently sold it. I was constantly being flashed at night for high pointing headlights. Any manufacturers that put their axles a little more towards the front?

The axle location is based on having optimum control of the trailer while towing. When the axle is moved too far forward you stand a better chance of losing control of the trailer. With the amount of weight you can have on the trailer it would take control of your vehicle and cause an accident that would cause injury or death to yourself and or others.

 

[BlueKnife]

A lot of cars and trucks have a dial on the dash that you can use to lower the headlights. Most of the ones I've owned for the last 15 years have had them. And we do have automatically adjusting (up and down) headlights here. My wife's 2008 model VW has them so its not just on expensive cars.

We used to joke that the way to increase the load capacity on a dump truck was to cut the mud flaps shorter so they wouldn't drag. Seems like changing the headlight angle due to an overload makes about the same amount of sense.

 

[soler]

The link to etrailer, which explains the 60/40 and 10%-15% is spot on. With that said, if you have a trailer that has the axles farther back, you need to keep in mind the purpose of that trailer. It isn't going to be an all-purpose trailer, it's a purpose-built trailer. A car hauler is purpose-built to haul a car, not a tractor. Not saying you can't haul a tractor on it. Just saying that you need to keep in mind that the trailer was "purpose-built" to haul a car. A car is usually balanced at 60-40, or 55-45. And when you load a car, generally speaking it's going to only be slightly forward of the the center of the axles, and not hanging off the back. A tractor is usually (especially with a FEL) front heavy, and with the loader it's hard to not have too much tongue weight because the loader will be all the way to the front of the trailer, and the rear tires at the rear of the trailer. So, either the trailer is meant to have a car that is easier to position as it was intended, or it's meant to be pulled by a 3/4 ton or one ton. Or, as mentioned, a weight-distribution hitch NEEDS to be used.

Loading a trailer is very often done wrong. How many trailer do you see with just a few things on it, but all of the load is at the front? I see it all the time. Motorcycles loaded on the front of a 16 foot trailer. Why? Because they want to use the front of the frame to hold the front tire. The proper thing would be to install wheel chocks on the trailer so the bike could be loaded over the axles (slightly forward) to keep the balance at 60/40 and the tongue weight at 10%-15%. If said bike is loaded on the front, but towed by a 3/4 ton truck, no big deal. But if towed by a 1/2 ton, or SUV, the bike needs to be only slightly forward of the axles. Another thing to keep in mind. I have two trucks. Both Rams. One is a 1/5 ton, the other is a Dually. However, they BOTH have the exact same hitch. Rated at 5,000 lbs, or 10,000 lbs with a weight distribution hitch. Long story short here....If you are pulling that trailer with a tractor on it, with a 1/2 ton truck, you NEED to load it right, AND use a weight-distribution hitch.

 

[dieselscout80]

if you are pulling with a 1/2 ton truck you may need to use a weight distribution hitch. That can help a lot if your truck is not level. I WOULD NEVER want to buy a heavy trailer with axles in the center. It is important that the trailer trail well BOTH empty and loaded. This is my 20' tilt bed which is 20 foot. I use a WD hitch and it trails perfect. Moving axles forward - increasing weight on the back may create the most dangerous problem with sway control. Most good WD hitches also have sway control. The books say 10-15% of gross trailer weight on the tongue. I use 10%. This trailer is 14K. What is the weight of the trailer you want this time and what is the max weight of what you want to tow? When you get your new trailer, load it and go to a CAT scale to verify all the axles weight to find the best way to load it for trailing and safety. BUY a good trailer. But they are very expensive now. Best Wishes. Consider all the options you may need. BRAKES on all axles, Heavy set back front jack with side crank, location of spare, led lighting, ramps or tilt etc.

EDIT: I should also add - Keep all your numbers in vehicle specifications - Max combined Vehicle -GRVW - max vehicle axle weight, max trailer weight (load including weight of trailer) and Vehicle max tow weight. You may not be able to keep all the numbers in spec. If not, either trailer it too big or tow vehicle is too small. I have a 33 gal fuel tank. When it is full, I am very close to vehicle gross rated weight.




View attachment 855583

What brand and model is that trailer?

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

I found a great book on trailers at the thrift store about 6-months before mu buddy and I rebuilt his trailer. Which was a home built by a local Welder.

This is the book:

Trailers : How to Design and Build. Volume 2. Structure, by M. M. Smith. It can be found on Amazon, along with the other two books in the series..​

I highly recommend the series of books, the third book on how to evaluate and buy trailers is probably the best if you don’t intend to build a trailer. There are a bunch of bad reviews, from what appear to be welders who were expecting plans, and disappointed..

The fact that you can weld does not mean you can design and build a trailer. I helped a buddy, rebuild a home built equipment trailer, he bought off a local mason.

When we got the deck stripped off, I used the second book in the series to help me analyze, the frame. (I’m an engineer, and could have figured it all out myself. But having a primer from someone with years of experience designing trailers was a big help, and saved hours of research.). The frame was way oversized, and could handle a 12,000-lb load, but only had 3,500-lb axles and springs. We replaced the old axles and springs with new 4,500-lb springs with electric brakes. In the process, we moved the axles back from the center of the deck, and located the front spring eye, at the center of the load deck. The trailer towed a lot better with the axles moved back. Now that I own the trailer, and have towed a few different things with it, I would move the axles back about another 16-inches. Just becasue ,as others have said, you want at least ten percent of the load on the tongue, and with the FEL on and the bucket all the way forward, I‘m barely there.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Recommendation on Weight Distributing Hitch.

I highly recommend the WeighSafe weight distributing hitches.

They have an integral tongue weight scale built in. And they have an app, which based on the weight of your load, the tongue weight and the axle lay out, the app gives you what tongue load to adjust the hitch to balance everything out. I spent a bunch of hours watching video reviews on YouTube, before making hte decision to buy one, and it works great. I only wish that they would sell the load bars separately.

 

[hiddentacocatneddih]

I respectfully disagree. Weight distributing hitches are widely used in the RV market and make it possible to tow a trailer that is well within the total tow weight rating of the tow vehicle but is front heavy making the total hitch weight too high.

Just because they make them doesnt mean they are a good idea

RV industry is just trying to convince people to buy bigger campers than their trucks can handle.

 

[deezler]

Just because they make them doesnt mean they are a good idea

RV industry is just trying to convince people to buy bigger campers than their trucks can handle.

You need to separate those two ideas, though.

Sure, the RV dealers like to use them as a band aid on overloaded half-ton trucks.

But go out to your 1/2 ton pickup and read the owners manual. It probably says that "in order to two over 5000 lbs, a weight distributing hitch is REQUIRED". My 2500HD said the exact same thing. Sure, I could pull a loaded 10k dump trailer without a WD hitch and have no issues, but it was in violation of my manufacturers specific instructions.

Weight distributing hitches do more than just delete some tongue weight - they make the entire towing experience safer. And yes, do allow your 1/2 ton truck to get up closer to it's max towing rating on paper.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Just because they make them doesnt mean they are a good idea

RV industry is just trying to convince people to buy bigger campers than their trucks can handle.

Rams trucks are squat machines, you don't need much behind and they are squatted right up... so its ether you have air bags or a weight distribution hitch... Sure having a 2500 would be nice but to haul a camper twice a year I ratter used a distribution hitch or air bags.

 

[tradosaurus]

If you want to know the REAL reason, listen up:

If the axles were more centered, the center of gravity of the rig would be right around the center of the 2 axles. With a load placed on it, this location would pretty much be the same. Given the total mass of trailer + load, the yawing frequency would be (lets say) F_sub_yaw.

With the axles placed farther back, the yaw inertia is a higher value because of the 'axis translation' theorem (I_zz = I_zz + M*r^2). R being the altered distance. This LOWERS the natural yaw (tongue swing frequency) so it will be much more manageable. It it gets higher than about 1 Hz. you're probably not going to be able to save it if it starts oscillating above the critical speed.

Another way of saying it is that the swinging tendency will happen at a much higher speed.

That's my typical expert witness court-room testimony.

 

[Midniteoyl]

My 20' car hauler is like this also, axles set pretty far back.

However this is the correct way to make and use such long trailers. If you put the axles right in the middle, there would be a huge potential for negative tongue weight, which we all know is a terribly dangerous situation.

If you want such a long trailer, you need a tow vehicle that can handle the tongue weight, simple as that. You also MUST be using a WD hitch. Start there if not.

I also recently traded my trusty old 2500HD for a newer F150 with much lighter springs. I plan to add a pair of roadmaster active suspension springs if and when I need to start towing heavy again.

Chevrolet 1500 Silverado 1990 - 2024 | SD Kit

This RoadActive Suspension Kit includes an easy to install RAS Helper Spring for each rear leaf spring. RoadActive Suspension kits are designed to strengthen the rear leaf springs for towing or hauling without negatively affecting unloaded ride quality. This 3-in-1 solution works like a helper...

activesuspension.com

Put those on my 150. Love them..

Took the 2" spacer out from between leaf springs and axle when installing (to lower rear ride height for a better balanced look) and then set the Roadmasters to a middle pre-load tension. Truck rides and corners better with less rearend sway.

edit: Do you find the 20' trailer to be long enough for the Kioti w/loader and 3-point mower? I was thinking of getting closer to a 22', but 20's are usually cheaper.

 

[deezler]

Put those on my 150. Love them..

Took the 2" spacer out from between leaf springs and axle when installing (to lower rear ride height for a better balanced look) and then set the Roadmasters to a middle pre-load tension. Truck rides and corners better with less rearend sway.

Yeah I already removed the 1.25" spacer blocks from my rear spring perches (4wd with FX4) to sort of "level" the truck and remove some rake. And partly in anticipation of getting roadmasters. I've only read good things about them.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

It is important to remember, that the trailer rotates around the axles.

I’ll try not to go off into the physics of what goes on too far.

Think of the trailer from the hitch point to the center of the axle(s). This lever length for easy to follow math, I’ll do like a physicist, and make it twenty feet for convenience, knowing it is unrealistic.

The trailer will want to rotate around the center of gravity if it starts to sway. The further forward from the center of the axles, the center of gravity is, the more leverage the trailer has has to control the sway. For purposes of easy math we will say that the distance from the axles to the center of gravity is 5-ft.

So, if the trailer wants to sway and yaw, you have a thirty foot lever to stop it with. And with the hitch to center of axles of 25-ft, and teh distance to center of gravity of five feet, the percentage of the load on the hitch will be 5/25 or 20% of the total trailer load. This 20% pushes down on the rear wheels. Which in turn increases the friction between teh tire and the pavement. And it is thus harder for the trailer yaw, and sway, to push the tow vehicle around.

Down side of increasing the load on a bumper hitch, is that the load on the rear of the vehicle, causes leverage acting around the rear wheels, which wants to lift the front of the vehicle and decreases the ability to steer the vehicle.

The use of a load distributing hitch, creates a torque around the hitch, which counters the torque created by the tongue load, and put a load equal to that on the rear wheels, and make the steering stable.

None of this over rides the tow vehicles, max towing weight and GVW. Much of the GVW maximum is based on how big the brakes are. Which is why the wheel size of newer 3/4 and 1-ton trucks keeps getting larger. They need the bigger wheels, to fit ever increasing brake systems into the wheels, so they can tow ever increasing loads. Soon they will hit the max allowable without air brakes. At which point we will see whether they change the law or not.

 

[jgmo]

I'm in the market for a 22' car hauler for my Kubota. What I've been noticing is that most of the trailer length is in front of the axles, putting a lot of weight on the hitch. What am I missing here? My last 22' trailer had the same problem and I recently sold it. I was constantly being flashed at night for high pointing headlights. Any manufacturers that put their axles a little more towards the front?

Well, I know from experience that you DO NOT want that much trailer and load STEERING for you if you get the tongue weight too low!
That bad boy will toss you around like a puppy shaking a rope if it doesn't have enough on the tongue.
One method of countering the high headlights would be old fashioned air adjustable shocks on the rear of your tow vehicle.
Good luck

 

[Jaygyver]

Not all trailers can carry the same load. Whether short or long. You have to match the load to the trailer that you want or have. When maxed out the trailer axle(s) should be carrying 85/90%+- of the weight. That's how they were designed for bumper pulled trailers. How you load it is the difference. With the offset axle like the OP's picture shows, only means you should load longer/lighter loads in the front. Heavier loads still go over the axle. Having too much bumper weight is still as bad as not enough.

Fifth wheel/Goose neck trailers are just another galaxy difference compared to a bumper pulled trailer.

The reason a "semi" has the axles stretched out is because of the Federal/State BRIDGE law. Commercially, for each loaded axle weight the axle has to be a certain amount of distance from the nearest other loaded axle AND has to be a certain overall length.
If you look, sometimes you will see the tandem axle on a long trailer that has been shortened, that means they have a short heavy load on and most of the weight was on the tractor and the rear axle is now carrying the extra weight from the tractor. BUT, it still can't be over a certain weight for the shorter wheel base now. So instead of 80k they can only carry 60k or 70k total.
Google DOT state/federal bridge laws, it WILL give you a headache.