74 hp skid vs 74 hp hoe for building tiny acreage?

[shooterdon]

Rerod, I would get a quote for the garage footings and septic. Those are not large jobs and buying a big machine to do one of each may not make sense. A contractor will have the digging done in two days. Like you said, even a used TLB is in the $25k range and it can get pricey if it needs work. You can do the backfilling and grading with a smaller more maneuverable tractor...see below.

On a small property, it can be difficult to justify even a 40 HP tractor. If I was not moving totes of wood that weigh close to 2000 lbs, and bags of wood that weigh 1500 lbs into the bed of a truck I would not need my 40 HP tractor.

Last year I looked at the TYM 2515. It is a nice machine for $20k new, with warranty. It does not have Tier IV crap on it. Only 24 HP but how much do you really need? Decent FEL capacity (2200 lb) and 3 PH capacity (3300 lb)...and you can park it in a garage. I came close to selling my LS and buying it.

 

[CliffordK]

I haven't seen a lot of Cummins engines spec'd on the tractors I've looked at. They may hit some of the skid steers. Some of the old John Deere tractors had Detroit 2-cycle engines, but that is a bygone era.

The smaller tractors will be fine for general utility work on a small plot. However, you will find yourself somewhat limited with lifting capacity.

Somewhere around 40 HP may be a good target range.

As far as backhoes, you should be able to find some used industrial or government backhoes without spending an arm and a leg.

Finding a good cheap skid steer that isn't beat to pieces may be a tall order.

 

[rScotty]

Thanks everyone.

My hill top property has a functional mobile home on it my GF lives in, so yes a upgraded septic eventually needs installed, maybe, but isn't important considering the two existing bathrooms. Plumbing will be installed, but not hooked up until later. The barn has been torn down but the crumbling foundation remains. My tiny acreage feels big because there's no one in sight..

And CliffordK is correct.. I only need to build one garage, bury one septic.. But I work really slow, and its not a small garage. I should have built violins as much attention I give to details and if I hired a contractor to build this, he'd probably fire me like my financial advisor did lol..

So the trick is to buy and be able to sell without losing to much so I need to buy used, and hope I don't end up with big repairs.. But knowing me, I'll probably keep it around, but 25k is allot for something that doesn't make you money though. 25k might not buy much backhoe either.

As far as the 74 hp.. That's the hp rating of the 4b cummins engines I like and wouldn't be fair comparing a case 95XT skid, to any tractor or backhoe smaller than the case 580 with the same engine.. But I'm getting the feeling the cummins engines aren't as big a deal in the tractor and skid steer industry as they were in trucks.. Id like to find a 75 hp 4x4 tractor with a removable backhoe, but they are much smaller. Looks like they put allot of stress on the three point too.

Good food for thought guys, thanks again.

Well, I never thought I'd have a full size TLB either - but in the last few years I've seen several old 2wd 580 and 310s go in the $12,000/15,000 range. Older machines with smooth tires, battery questionable, loose pins, and a few leaks - but good engine, tranny, and such.
Two of my friends locally bought them.
What they got for their money were old tired-out tractors - but not really broken. Not anything a person would want to use for a money job, but they would start and ran surprisingly good - plenty good to build one more house.
Being mechanical types, both guys have now put a few thousand bucks into bits and pieces - mostly hoses, electricals, pins, & bushings. Add another thousand for tires. I was surprised to hear how expensive it was when they started replacing the pins and bushings for JD310 BH & FEL. Anyway, now both machines are in pretty decent shape. I'd say they've turned into keepers.

It's impressive how durable the main components are on these old hoes. They've got a ton of hours and still run well. What made them affordable was all the hundreds of small things needing work.
All the small problems made them cheap to buy.

It all depends on what kind of work you enjoy doing.

rScotty

 

[eKretz]

Yep. I got my 1994 555D for $8,500. 4wd, extendahoe. Needed front tires, will need rears eventually, starting to crack - but if they hold air, all good for me. Needed a little shuttle electrical work and a starter. Engine runs like a top, pins and bushings are tight.

 

[rScotty]

Another nice thing about the full size TLBs is how weill they clear a couple of feet of snow. Ours doesn't have a snowblower, and without a 3pt there is no way to pull a blade.

What we have learned to do over the years couldn't be easier - just lower the bucket to skim the ground and drive forward. What could be simpler ....
After awhile the bucket is full of compacted snow but the 310 doesn't care. It just keeps on pushing a compacted wedge of snow in front of itself.

In not too far, that compacted wedge of snow begins working like a plow blade itself and forcng the snow ten feet in front of the bucket to tumble to both sides of the road.

Sometimes it's nice to go over the top with extra weight, traction, and horsepower.

rScotty

 

[Torvy]

I just got off of a rental mini-ex. Less than $300 dropped off and picked up by them. It worked well and if I owned one I would probably find things to do with it...but I'm too cheap for what amounts to a toy.

It typically adds $7000-$14000 for a backhoe on a tractor. I know a TLB they are 'standard' but you can rent the BH work a lot cheaper and save that money.

Unless you are going to be building professionally, the TLB is probably overkill.

@shooterdon mentioned the TYM. Many of their models use their own (formerly Kukje) engine. It is modeled after the Cummins as Kukje used to make them for Cummins. They are available anywhere from 25-55 HP.

 

[rerod]

I called my local equipment place who said they stopped renting skid steers but has a JCD 8040 mini ex for 300 a day, so that should take care of any deep digging..

I started to look closer at my foundation details and now think a skid steer might be the best?
The detail I was forgetting was the buried 4'x8' horizontal foam insulation "wings" or apron that surrounds the entire foundation outside, protecting the shallow footings from heaving..
To me, it looks like I need to level my area and then dig a 5' wide 2.5' deep flat bottom ditch to place the insulation and forms, actually pitched away a little. Then back fill to secure the insulation and forms, stake and pour.. Does this sound right? I believe this variation is called a frost protected shallow stem wall, which doesn't need a backhoe..

 

[shooterdon]

I called my local equipment place who said they stopped renting skid steers but has a JCD 8040 mini ex for 300 a day, so that should take care of any deep digging..

I started to look closer at my foundation details and now think a skid steer might be the best?
The detail I was forgetting was the buried 4'x8' horizontal foam insulation "wings" or apron that surrounds the entire foundation outside, protecting the shallow footings from heaving..
To me, it looks like I need to level my area and then dig a 5' wide 2.5' deep flat bottom ditch to place the insulation and forms, actually pitched away a little. Then back fill to secure the insulation and forms, stake and pour.. Does this sound right? I believe this variation is called a frost protected shallow stem wall, which doesn't need a backhoe..

View attachment 855816

I cannot advise on the construction details but your building inspector would be a good resource as he/she knows your local conditions and codes.

$300/day for a mini-ex would be the way I would go. Even if it takes you 10 days to get all the digging done (and I bet it will be half of that), your cost is $3000 plus fuel.

IMO you will be better off long term looking at a tractor in the 3000 lb range for getting things done around the homestead. A skid steer is nice to have but a lot of money. I looked at one for my firewood business and could not justify a decent used one.

Good luck!!

 

[mike69440]

I would but a footing underneath the wall, plus the horizontal foam, especially if the soil cannot support a lot of weight on prone to heaving.
How much land do you intend to work after your project and what is soil condition, Terrain, and woods look like?

 

[rScotty]

I called my local equipment place who said they stopped renting skid steers but has a JCD 8040 mini ex for 300 a day, so that should take care of any deep digging..

I started to look closer at my foundation details and now think a skid steer might be the best?
The detail I was forgetting was the buried 4'x8' horizontal foam insulation "wings" or apron that surrounds the entire foundation outside, protecting the shallow footings from heaving..
To me, it looks like I need to level my area and then dig a 5' wide 2.5' deep flat bottom ditch to place the insulation and forms, actually pitched away a little. Then back fill to secure the insulation and forms, stake and pour.. Does this sound right? I believe this variation is called a frost protected shallow stem wall, which doesn't need a backhoe..

View attachment 855816

Hmm.... OK. You are asking, so let me ask too. Why did you choose this foundation design? Have you dug in that area to see what the subsurface is like? If not, thats not a problem in the design stage because there are optional foundations for any structure. So design away, but before choosing one particular foundation you need to dig a trench to see what is actually there.

Your location and the type of dirt and subsoil you have all work together to determine the type of foundation that you want. Some people want to go with the minimum they can get away with, and others want a bomb shelter.

I'm thinking you can simplify that shallow foundation. Concrete is one of the least expensive parts of the house. If your subsoil is good, consider taking the walls down a foot below frost line and spread the bottom footer a little. You can add verical insulation if you want, but then wouldn't need the horizontal wings.

Why are the walls offset from the foundation? Some sort of tropical rain drainage? Is there another way to accomplish the same thing?

 

[Vigo327]

I think a tractor+backhoe or TLB is more useful than a skid steer if you are talking about an all purpose machine. Both are probably bigger than what you need unless you are digging your own septic and foundation, and even then the skid steer, while POSSIBLE to use for serious digging jobs, is not ideal.

Honestly, in your situation i would probably farm out the few big jobs you need done and then get yourself a tractor with loader and backhoe that is small enough to trailer with a truck you're willing to own, or already own. My Kubota B8200 does everything i need on 5 acres and while i would prefer the loader stronger and the backhoe have more reach, i sure would NOT trade it for a skid steer unless the skid steer was in better shape and had SSQA and came with more than just a plain bucket. Very unlikely anyone with a skid steer would make that trade because of the money difference, but in terms of usefulness i'll stick with what ive got unless something too good to be true comes along.

 

[rerod]

Your building inspector would be a good resource as he/she knows your local conditions and codes.

Good luck!!

No building inspections in my county.

I would but a footing underneath the wall, plus the horizontal foam, especially if the soil cannot support a lot of weight on prone to heaving.
How much land do you intend to work after your project and what is soil condition, Terrain, and woods look like?

Many footings are 12" and that is what I believe that beam is.. 12" x 24" about

Why did you choose this foundation design? Have you dug in that area to see what the subsurface is like? If not, thats not a problem in the design stage because there are optional foundations for any structure. So design away, but before choosing one particular foundation you need to dig a trench to see what is actually there.

Your location and the type of dirt and subsoil you have all work together to determine the type of foundation that you want. Some people want to go with the minimum they can get away with, and others want a bomb shelter.

I'm thinking you can simplify that shallow foundation. Concrete is one of the least expensive parts of the house. If your subsoil is good, consider taking the walls down a foot below frost line and spread the bottom footer a little. You can add verical insulation if you want, but then wouldn't need the horizontal wings.

Why are the walls offset from the foundation? Some sort of tropical rain drainage? Is there another way to accomplish the same thing?

I chose a FPSF because you don't have to dig below the frost line. Less work and materials, cheaper and more DIY friendly.

No I have not had a soil test done.

The stick wall is offset to keep the foundation insulation flush with the wall.

https://www.homeinnovation.com/~/media/Files/Reports/Revised-Builders-Guide-to-Frost-Protected-Shallow-Foundations.pdf

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Skid steer, buy a set of grouser tracks and a good set of pallet forks. Then you can do it. You can get down two feet with the pallet forks for electric lines. Rent a mini excavator for water lines. Be faster than tractor back hoe.

A tractor is good at pulling anything other than that it is a compromise.

 

[rScotty]

No building inspections in my county.

That's nice, but it doesn't have mean that there aren't people worth hiring to go over your plans and make them better.

Many footings are 12" and that is what I believe that beam is.. 12" x 24" about

No way you can come up with a footing dimension without knowing what it is supporting and what it is bearing against. Most don't take the trouble to figure it out. Concrete is cheap and so is digging.
If you would rather do it rule of thumb, that works too. Just decide on a fundation wall thickness - best is to make the foundation wall slightly wider than the finished frame wall. Then make the footer twice that wide and as tall as the wall is thick. Don't forget the steel.

I chose a FPSF because you don't have to dig below the frost line. Less work and materials, cheaper and more DIY friendly.

Dig below the frost line. You'll be glad you did.

No I have not had a soil test done.

The stick wall is offset to keep the foundation insulation flush with the wall.

I think that is the wrong way to go about it. Just dig so your footers are below the frostline and let the eaves take care of the runoff. If you do that and then bring the foundation up a foot above grade you will have enough space to put a storm/root cellar down there.

https://www.homeinnovation.com/~/media/Files/Reports/Revised-Builders-Guide-to-Frost-Protected-Shallow-Foundations.pdf

Put your time into the foundation. You'll be glad you did. Then use twice as many fasteners to the sill plate as is common. Double reinforce the frame corners. Carry the same philosophy with you as you fasten the rafters to the top plate. Now it will stand up to a storm that will carry away most stick built houses on shallow foundations.... and all because the foundation is heavy and rigid.

rScotty

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Ring shank nails on all your sheeting. Hurricane clips as suggested above. Then if you're worried about frost...... dig down so you can pour a level footing to lay block on. Lay your block, fill it with sand pack it all down. Put in your in floor, pour your wall on top. Then use a domestic tank water heater to heat it. If i remember correctly the building is not that big. And yup you can do all that with your loader.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Here is another thought. What you want is a mini excavator and a skid steer. Put in a geo ground loop. That will help amortize out the cost of the excavator. For what they want for a decent tractor backhoe you can get a skid loader and excavator and for what you're doing..... that is the way to go anyway.

 

[Vigo327]

The only cheap excavator is a tiny chinese one or one with a ****load of problems. You can get a really nice tractor backhoe for 20-25k and possibly cheaper, just not a very big one. In my opinion you don't need big. Any backhoe ~6.5ft digging depth or bigger is fine, and the only reason the digging depth even matters to me is because of the REACH, because short reach is very annoying. As far as a loader, anything that will lift 1000lbs to full height will do most things you'd want to do with it. Keep in mind if it lifts 1000lbs to full height it can probably lift 2000lbs off the ground, and unless you're loading onto a semi trailer there's very few times you'd ever want to pick your max capacity up by more than a couple of feet anyway.

Compared to a tractor, a skid steer is just a faster, stronger, more maneuverable loader. Which is kind of just 3 ways of saying faster. The number of times i wish my tractor loaders (i have two small loader tractors) were faster, stronger, or more maneuverable is actually a pretty small number. The number of times id wish my skid steer could pull a 3pt or mount a backhoe without being a PITA, would be a greater number of times.

But im gonna shut up about it, i've had my turn here..

 

[rScotty]

The only cheap excavator is a tiny chinese one or one with a ****load of problems. You can get a really nice tractor backhoe for 20-25k and possibly cheaper, just not a very big one. In my opinion you don't need big. Any backhoe ~6.5ft digging depth or bigger is fine, and the only reason the digging depth even matters to me is because of the REACH, because short reach is very annoying. As far as a loader, anything that will lift 1000lbs to full height will do most things you'd want to do with it. Keep in mind if it lifts 1000lbs to full height it can probably lift 2000lbs off the ground, and unless you're loading onto a semi trailer there's very few times you'd ever want to pick your max capacity up by more than a couple of feet anyway.

Compared to a tractor, a skid steer is just a faster, stronger, more maneuverable loader. Which is kind of just 3 ways of saying faster. The number of times i wish my tractor loaders (i have two small loader tractors) were faster, stronger, or more maneuverable is actually a pretty small number. The number of times id wish my skid steer could pull a 3pt or mount a backhoe without being a PITA, would be a greater number of times.

But im gonna shut up about it, i've had my turn here..

There's also the difference in getting onto and off a tractor or skid loader. When doing building or landscaping, I'm constantly jumping off to do things and then getting back onto the tractor. Climbing across the bucket on a skidloader gets old - or maybe just me getting old. It just seems like more of a chore now.

My preference is for easier work, or sometimes doing more work - hardly ever is it for faster work.

But as someone said before, tracked vehicles have a peculiar attraction for some, and if that is what rings a person's chimes then having tracks is what matters. I don't expect that there is any way to change a preference like that, and no reason to do so.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

Climbing across the bucket on a skidloader gets old...

That part is the least of it, I think.

Open the door (loader must be all the way down), sit down, buckle the seatbelt...and then don't move, or the brakes set and the hydraulics shut down.

Not that it's fun to climb over a snow covered snowblower.

 

[rerod]

I'm leaning towards a tractor with a ssqa bucket, but a FEL that will lift 1000 to full height is probably to heavy to mow the lawn with later..

I'm guessing I need to stay below 3000 lbs tractor weight to finish mow, but how much will the FELL lift? Plus, will the hydraulics of this smaller tractor be enough to run skid steer attachments?

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