Warranty misleading

[RjCorazza]

This thread has me thinking I can tell you that. I am back dragging all the time on the driveway. But I always float the bucket with a slight tilt forward. Never use it without floating. And maybe I am missing something entirely but I can't see how that bends the shaft. I understand that it's extended and at it weakest point. But correct if I am wrong I float it going backwards it should be fine right? I understand the possibility even floating it forward that if I meet that unmovable object it's gonna be hard on equipment. And when running forward the bucket is as close to level with the surface or slightly up as so to avoid that even with floating it going forward. So Am I also wrong for doing so? And if so please tell me so as I would rather take a scolding from you all here than my wallet

I don't see any issue with back dragging in float, particularly with the bucket only slightly rolled forward. The further out the cylinders are, the greater chance of damage. Add the weight on the bucket plus the pulling power of the tractor is asking for problems when the fel is not in float.
I'm sure you're fine with how you're operating. The vast majority of damaged curl cylinders is from working a scut or cut like it was a giant bulldozer.
I back drag all the time with full weight on the fel... but the bucket is either flat or on the heel.

 

[5030]

This thread has me thinking I can tell you that. I am back dragging all the time on the driveway. But I always float the bucket with a slight tilt forward. Never use it without floating. And maybe I am missing something entirely but I can't see how that bends the shaft. I understand that it's extended and at it weakest point. But correct if I am wrong I float it going backwards it should be fine right? I understand the possibility even floating it forward that if I meet that unmovable object it's gonna be hard on equipment. And when running forward the bucket is as close to level with the surface or slightly up as so to avoid that even with floating it going forward. So Am I also wrong for doing so? And if so please tell me so as I would rather take a scolding from you all here than my wallet

No scolding from me as that is EXACTLY how I do it as well. When I back drag with the heel of the bucket, the loader is ALWAYS in float mode, no exceptions. Locking the cylinders at full extension or anywhere in between with the rods extended is inviting them to bend.

Even if I use the cutting edge of the bucket to back drag with (which is rare for me), it's ALWAYS in the float position. Far as moving forward I don't put it in float simply because the cutting edge will tend to dig in but at the same time, I'm keenly aware of the limitations of my loaders and what they will withstand and bot of my loaders are well capable of very heavy loads, both driven and shock loads.

 

[Torvy]

10-1 the OP doesn't change a thing.

 

[kevin37b]

That should never happen . Loader should take that .

 

[Torvy]

That should never happen . Loader should take that .

Sorry, you are 100% wrong. The mfgs specifically tell you not to do it that way.

These are tractors, not track or skid loaders.

 

[5030]

No, had blade straight down
It does supposedly have a good warranty on drive line and my paperwork reflects it, course this was before TYM. But not even a phone call response is pretty poor customer service.

Looks to me like it's a bucket, not a blade and no matter what brand it is, that is plain and simple abuse. You never back drag with the bucket in ANY position except flat on the ground or with it tipped slightly up and you always use the heel of the bucket to back drag anything.

That damage is 100% on you. Got nothing to do with heat treat or anything else other than your abusive use.

 

[5030]

2 years bumper to bumper including implements and loaders. 6 years drivetrain.

...and no warranty on abusive operation.

 

[sd455dan]

That should never happen . Loader should take that .

I agree that there are many "older" tractors in the under 60 hp range that never had problems back dragging with the front of the bucket.

I think it is related to the rod size.

Many older machines had 1 1/2 rods and ~3" cylinders.

Today everybody is downsizing those hydraulic cylinders and maybe the steel is not as tough as the older stuff either. I have blown hoses on both the old Ford 3000 and the Rhino with Koyker but never bent a rod back dragging with the buckets front lip and front tires in the air. Obviously not fully extending the rods and bucket to over 90* either.
Catch something immovable and something will give. If I bought a new LS TYM JD etc in the under 70 HP range would I do what I do with the old Koyker? or Fords...
Nope I would not.

 

[ptsg]

I agree that there are many "older" tractors in the under 60 hp range that never had problems back dragging with the front of the bucket.

I think it is related to the rod size.

Many older machines had 1 1/2 rods and ~3" cylinders.

Today everybody is downsizing those hydraulic cylinders and maybe the steel is not as tough as the older stuff either. I have blown hoses on both the old Ford 3000 and the Rhino with Koyker but never bent a rod back dragging with the buckets front lip and front tires in the air. Obviously not fully extending the rods and bucket to over 90* either.
Catch something immovable and something will give. If I bought a new LS TYM JD etc in the under 70 HP range would I do what I do with the old Koyker? or Fords...
Nope I would not.

That bold part is the key as to why you never hard issues with your old Ford, nor you would with any of these new tractors.

 

[ptsg]

For some reason, since COVID, it almost became a trend of owning a tractor, so loads and loads of tractors were sold. A big portion of these new tractors were sold to new tractor owners that completely new to the tractor world or any equipment for that matter.

They're completely clueless how to operate a tractor, specially how to properly use the loader. Heck, lots of them can't even do a basic bolt and nut check or simply check the fluids.

This eventually leads to a big rise in cases like this or broken front axle parts, bent loader frames, bent loader mounts, etc, which tends to make look way worse than it is because it happens so often.

Then when some folks see a tractor with a loader, they have a natural inclination to treat their tractor like a skidsteer or a bulldozer for some reason.

I'm honestly surprised how many of these loader related failures (cylinders, front axles, bent SSQA frames, etc) gets covered under warranty from the manufacturers, when it's clear that the tractors have been abused, even if the owners may think they weren't.

I've read posts from people that had their cylinders replaced under warranty like 2 or 3 times.

 

[5030]

Exactly. If you look at the OP's picture, he had the cylinder rods EXTENDED FULLY.

My only suggestion to the OP is either buy new cylinders or have them rebuilt with new rods and don't do that again

 

[5030]

For some reason, since COVID, it almost became a trend of owning a tractor, so loads and loads of tractors were sold. A big portion of these new tractors were sold to new tractor owners that completely new to the tractor world or any equipment for that matter.

They're completely clueless how to operate a tractor, specially how to properly use the loader. Heck, lots of them can't even do a basic bolt and nut check or simply check the fluids.

This eventually leads to a big rise in cases like this or broken front axle parts, bent loader frames, bent loader mounts, etc, which tends to make look way worse than it is because it happens so often.

Then when some folks see a tractor with a loader, they have a natural inclination to treat their tractor like a skidsteer or a bulldozer for some reason.

I'm honestly surprised how many of these loader related failures (cylinders, front axles, bent SSQA frames, etc) gets covered under warranty from the manufacturers, when it's clear that the tractors have been abused, even if the owners may think they weren't.

I've read posts from people that had their cylinders replaced under warranty like 2 or 3 times.

What I find amazing is, the amount of owner abuse the smaller tractors take before failing. To me, that alone is a testament to their build quality. Guy down the road a ways has a smaller Branson with a backhoe on it and he constantly drags the tractor around with the bucket. Told him that is a bad idea but he totally ignores me. It will fail eventually and he will blame it on the dealer (the dealer is up town btw) and bad mouth the unit when the impending failure is all on him.

 

[sd455dan]

That bold part is the key as to why you never hard issues with your old Ford, nor you would with any of these new tractors.

I Also make sure weight is hung on the 3 point as well.
We have some spots where the bottom went out and kids 4 wheeled them making deep ruts.
Pretty amazing how that mud fills back in the ruts by back dragging with pressure.

Again front tires in the air... Not float. Steer with the rear brakes.
Still not sure I would do this with a new CUT tractor, and definitely not going to "recommend it" to anyone.

 

[ruffdog]

Yes it is, which imho means the oem prob should have addressed it a very long time ago, cost would have been relatively minor to have used a beefier ram shaft, who doesnt use a tractor to back drag

I agree that there are many "older" tractors in the under 60 hp range that never had problems back dragging with the front of the bucket.

I think it is related to the rod size.

Many older machines had 1 1/2 rods and ~3" cylinders.

I believe the cause of this new trend of bending curl cylinders is the lack of piston/rod/casing overlap at full extension. Old tractor cylinders (and contractor grade equipment) had way more overlap with their large gland nuts/seals/pistons compared to the very compact modern versions. With little overlap (at full extension), any pressure against a fully extended cylinder may force it to buckle and bend.

 

[sd455dan]

Exactly. If you look at the OP's picture, he had the cylinder rods EXTENDED FULLY.

My only suggestion to the OP is either buy new cylinders or have them rebuilt with new rods and don't do that again

Opened that pic up to full screen . Yep does look like they were fully extended.
Ouch.
I like Branson's, but have heard some parts are pricey. Hopefully these are not to bad price wise

 

[5030]

In as much as they aren't leaking at the seals, I'd take them to a competent hydraulic rebuilder and have new rods fabbed up. Probably cheaper than new OEM cylinder assemblies, maybe.

 

[Balazar]

They don't use bigger cylinders because they would not fit with the engineering of the rest of the machine. larger diameter rods have larger cylinders and take a larger volume of fluid to actuate causing them to move slower at the same flow rate. They also put out more force because they have a larger surface area to push on. That extra force could overpower the engineering of the rest of the loader. Imagine swapping to a 5" cylinder and then bending the loader under its own power. There is a balance that must be maintained. People do things all the time that put shock loads on machines and bend rods. I've seen it done on massive mining equipment.

 

[5030]

Opened that pic up to full screen . Yep does look like they were fully extended.
Ouch.
I like Branson's, but have heard some parts are pricey. Hopefully these are not to bad price wise

Today, all OEM replacement parts are pricey and getting worse as inflation eats away at the dollar's value. Only will bet worse, not better until the gummit gets a hand on it and I don't see that happening in the near future at all. Just go to the grocery store to experience it first hand, or the filling station or most anywhere you spend your money at.

Welcome to the 'inflation club' we are all charter members in it.

 

[jigs_n_fixtures]

Guys: most of you are as old as I am. I remember inflation at 7%, with a prime lending rate of over 12%. They called it stagflation. Remember graduating from high school, with high unemployment, and insane interest. Considered myself damned lucky to get a summer job, at an airbase for $4.75/hour Mowing the ball fields.

A few months later, I landed a secret squirrel job, with a defense contractor, that paid more than my Dad made. Couldn’t tell folks where I worked, or what I really worked on even if it wasn’t still “secret”. Which I find humorous, because I see some of it mentioned on the web, from time to time.

So, the bit we have now is minuscule in comparison.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Except the gap in housing prices and income has never been greater. There is that.