Need advice on a machine to manage timberland

[Longleaf man]

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@Longleaf man thanks for coming back. I did maintenance for a few years on a 2000 acre woodlot in the Arkansas delta. I did not do any of the harvesting or thinning as that was hired out. The land was flat and it looks like your trees are mature. The soil was a clay silt so it did not turn as hard as your red clay. We did not have steep hills, but the levys were 10' tall in places and damn steep. My experiences might not apply 100% but there are lots of parallels.
I have a few questions:

• what is your budget?
• How wide are your fire breaks

Fire Break Maintenance

Do you have to take the firebreaks down to earth or just keep them mowed short? I know you have historically disc'd them, however in my opinion mowing is better as it is easier to drive on and reduces soil loss. Our firebreaks were 30' in width. In AR we were allowed to just mow them. I used a 15' batwing and a 7' single spindle rotary cutter on a 110 hp 4wd tractor. If doing maintenance on younger trees I would use a 45 hp open station compact to mow between the rows as the limbs prevented me from using a cab. If we needed to take the fire breaks down to soil I would use a medium or heavy duty tandem disc. We had some 12' tandem discs that once had wings that we removed. This gave us a nice strong small disc. I also did not mow with the loader on.

My experience is that these are primary tillage and used for prepping the ground for planting trees. You will have significant soil loss and make it soft (and muddy) if using this on fire breaks. Deep tillage loosens the soil making it a muddy mess with rain. Also the deeper tillage can hurt the tree roots. Your goal with a dirt fire break is to remove the fuel from the surface, so go with a tandem disc, it will remove the fuel, and require a smaller tractor. Big tractors in the woods are not fun to run. We never took the 250 hp or 400 hp tractors in the woods for this reason.
offset disc
View attachment 3739023
Tandem Disc
View attachment 3739187

Road Maintenance

There a few implements that are great for smoothing the roads out. I would look at a quality landscape grader, aka land plane, aka grading scraper with scarifiers in the front to break up the heavy clay like a MK Martin LP878.
In some situations a back blade with full hydraulics could be handy for removing ridges that form on the side of the road and pulling that material back onto the road bed, and cleaning out ditches.

I would also consider a HD box blade it is nice for spreading gravel and roughing in roads. The scarifiers will do a better job of ripping dirt if it turns too hard for the land scape grader. But best of all it works great as a counterweight to keep you stable when using the loader.

I do not see were you would need to have much dozer work done if you keep up with the road maintenance. If you can elevate the roads and keep the water off your winning 3/4's of the battle. Any time we found a pothole on a road we would address it immediately as it will grow quickly if ignored. Since most of our roads were on top of levy's it could lead to a washout. Then we had to use the dozers and excavators to repair the 4-10' tall levy.

We had dozers, excavators, backhoes, skidsteers, larger and smaller tractors, but all the mowing was done with two tractors. We used the dozers and excavators to maintain the levys so we could hold water for moist soil units.

Equipment Suggestions

I would look at buying two tractors, a 90-120 hp 4wd utility tractor with a cab and loader. One factor is that cab roofs are really weak on modern tractors (kubota) so that would be one of my deciding factors. I would then buy a 40-50 hp 4wd open station compact tractor with a loader to work in the rows, and they are handy as you can easily maneuver them sideways in a fire break.

For implements I would buy

• 8' land plane (6k new)
• 8' back blade with offset and tilt (2k used 7k new)
• 7-8' hd box blade with scarifiers (just as wide as the cabbed tractor) (2k used 7k new)
• Grapple for loader (3-4k new)
• 12' tandem disc or 15' batwing (used)
• 7' HD single spindle rotary cutter (4-8k)
• small chainsaw to keep on tractor.

Once you get doing the tasks you will discover what else you need. I would start basic, then add equipment that I see neccessary. You will break some glass in a cab, it happens as cabs are not great in woods. However in Georgia heat I would not be without a cab. My suggestions are based off my experiences doing what you described for maintenance in similar geography (mowing instead of discing though).

Thanks this is very helpful. I think I can hire a dozer to work on the steepest roads to create water bars to help with erosion. Do you have any experience with Rome Equipment? They make heavy duty disks and box scrapers here in Ga. Do you think I could get by with 1 offset disk, (no more than 5 feet wide) and 1 box scraper to start with? The spaces around the tree parcels are about 20-30 feet in width. Easy to get around and yes we either till with a disk or scrape the combustible vegetation with a dozer blade. We do not mow between the planted pines because they block out the sunshine preventing weeds and grasses from growing. I forgot to mention the damage done to the roads by tree harvesting. After being cut and delimbed the trees are hauled off by tractor trailers. Full loaded they can weigh over 60,000 pounds. Skidders are just about as bad. The harvesting companies are required by contract to repair the roads after they are finished but they often "forget" this part of the job.
I am thinking that if the red clay gets hard I can loosen the clay with the disk and then smooth things out with the road leveler or box scraper? Does this sound feasible?

 

[txbonds]

Much smaller scale here as I only maintain 62 acres, but it is in GA, has pine trees, and lots of red clay and sand. I built my perimeter and interior roads which cover somewhere around 1.5 miles in total. We also have two lakes and some elevation change. I've been through a bunch of equipment trying to find the best setup for my use.

I've tried numerous sized tractors, we've owned a Deere 310k backhoe, and mini excavators. What I've settled on is a 60hp tractor with hydrostatic drive. Its a Kioti, but approximate size of a Deere 4 series. I've owned larger frame and higher horsepower tractors but the issue I always face is fitting through the woods. They just become too big when you have to maneuver or get into the woods with them. While they certainly have more power and more capability, they do have some downsides.

With ponds and trees, we area always needing to dig something. A large backhoe like a 310k is great, but I've found an excavator to be more useful. Much less ground pressure on tracks than 4 tires. I can get into softer ground areas without sinking. The 310k is around 15,000 lbs and my excavator is approximately 12,500 lbs.

Reading the posts, and looking at your pictures, and then trying to put myself into your shoes, I would probably be looking at something like this:

> 100hp to 150hp range tractor - geared transmission - with removable front loader - for pulling heavier equipment for road work and material moving. I would add as many rear hydraulic ports as possible. 3 or 4 depending on what tractor supports. Add hydraulic top/tilt links which are invaluable for crowing roads with a tractor.

> 50hp to 60hp range tractor - hydrostatic transmission - with/without loader - for mowing around buildings, fences, tighter access areas, etc. Also, for getting into the woods, and for easier transport on smaller trailers.

> Excavator - with 4 way or 6 way blade - with thumb and dedicated secondary aux hydraulic lines for high flow item like brush cutter or mulcher. Mine is a 5.5 ton unit, but for your property you may want way bigger. That said, you would be surprised what you can accomplish with only a 5 to 8 ton machine.

> Implements
* 6 to 10 foot wide brush mower - depends on how large your open areas are and how narrow your roads are. If you are doing a lot of cutting on fire breaks and roads through woods, a bat wing or large mower might not make as much sense as someone maintaining a pasture. For me, a 7' mower is too large for many areas and I end up hanging it on trees/posts, etc. I stuck with 6'. Your need will be unique to you.
* Land Plane / Grader - May make sense. I have one but rarely use it. Once my roads were formed and grass began to fill in, I find that I mostly only need to cut them to maintain them. If you pull the land plane over those roads, just like a disc/harrow, you may just be inducing new errosion.
* Harrow/Disc - For cutting new fire breaks, and major rework of roads and firebreaks.
* Blade and Box Blade - I have both and use both. A box blade is great for dragging material and moving material, but many tasks can also benefit from an angle blade. Road crowning with an angle blade and top/tilt links on a tractor is a joy. Easy to set your angles and just drive making small adjustments while you go.
* Front Tractor Mower or Excavator Brush Cutter - For tree trimming and maintenance of road edges, these are invaluable. No matter how many times I mow our roads, we constantly have brush growing between the trees that extends out into the roads. About twice a year, I mount the front mower and drive through cleaning them up. Also useful for pond bank maintenance. I've been using a tractor mount version with pto driven hydraulics, but just purchased an excavator model to also supplement harder to reach areas.

Also, if I were to scale up to what you are doing I would not be without a Dump trailer or dump truck - nothing sucks more than moving dirt one tractor scoop at a time. Even on only 62 acres, it takes forever to move any amount of material from one side to the other.

I added some pictures for reference. Just showing property type, road types, material type, etc. Realizing my experience isn't exactly transferable but maybe it adds some additional thinking points to the mix. Good luck!

 

[M59]

@Longleaf man thanks for coming back. I did maintenance for a few years on a 2000 acre woodlot in the Arkansas delta. I did not do any of the harvesting or thinning as that was hired out. The land was flat and it looks like your trees are mature. The soil was a clay silt so it did not turn as hard as your red clay. We did not have steep hills, but the levys were 10' tall in places and damn steep. My experiences might not apply 100% but there are lots of parallels.
I have a few questions:

• what is your budget?
• How wide are your fire breaks

Fire Break Maintenance

Do you have to take the firebreaks down to earth or just keep them mowed short? I know you have historically disc'd them, however in my opinion mowing is better as it is easier to drive on and reduces soil loss. Our firebreaks were 30' in width. In AR we were allowed to just mow them. I used a 15' batwing and a 7' single spindle rotary cutter on a 110 hp 4wd tractor. If doing maintenance on younger trees I would use a 45 hp open station compact to mow between the rows as the limbs prevented me from using a cab. If we needed to take the fire breaks down to soil I would use a medium or heavy duty tandem disc. We had some 12' tandem discs that once had wings that we removed. This gave us a nice strong small disc. I also did not mow with the loader on.

My experience is that these are primary tillage and used for prepping the ground for planting trees. You will have significant soil loss and make it soft (and muddy) if using this on fire breaks. Deep tillage loosens the soil making it a muddy mess with rain. Also the deeper tillage can hurt the tree roots. Your goal with a dirt fire break is to remove the fuel from the surface, so go with a tandem disc, it will remove the fuel, and require a smaller tractor. Big tractors in the woods are not fun to run. We never took the 250 hp or 400 hp tractors in the woods for this reason.
offset disc
View attachment 3739023
Tandem Disc
View attachment 3739187

Road Maintenance

There a few implements that are great for smoothing the roads out. I would look at a quality landscape grader, aka land plane, aka grading scraper with scarifiers in the front to break up the heavy clay like a MK Martin LP878.
In some situations a back blade with full hydraulics could be handy for removing ridges that form on the side of the road and pulling that material back onto the road bed, and cleaning out ditches.

I would also consider a HD box blade it is nice for spreading gravel and roughing in roads. The scarifiers will do a better job of ripping dirt if it turns too hard for the land scape grader. But best of all it works great as a counterweight to keep you stable when using the loader.

I do not see were you would need to have much dozer work done if you keep up with the road maintenance. If you can elevate the roads and keep the water off your winning 3/4's of the battle. Any time we found a pothole on a road we would address it immediately as it will grow quickly if ignored. Since most of our roads were on top of levy's it could lead to a washout. Then we had to use the dozers and excavators to repair the 4-10' tall levy.

We had dozers, excavators, backhoes, skidsteers, larger and smaller tractors, but all the mowing was done with two tractors. We used the dozers and excavators to maintain the levys so we could hold water for moist soil units.

Equipment Suggestions

I would look at buying two tractors, a 90-120 hp 4wd utility tractor with a cab and loader. One factor is that cab roofs are really weak on modern tractors (kubota) so that would be one of my deciding factors. I would then buy a 40-50 hp 4wd open station compact tractor with a loader to work in the rows, and they are handy as you can easily maneuver them sideways in a fire break.

For implements I would buy

• 8' land plane (6k new)
• 8' back blade with offset and tilt (2k used 7k new)
• 7-8' hd box blade with scarifiers (just as wide as the cabbed tractor) (2k used 7k new)
• Grapple for loader (3-4k new)
• 12' tandem disc or 15' batwing (used)
• 7' HD single spindle rotary cutter (4-8k)
• small chainsaw to keep on tractor.

Once you get doing the tasks you will discover what else you need. I would start basic, then add equipment that I see neccessary. You will break some glass in a cab, it happens as cabs are not great in woods. However in Georgia heat I would not be without a cab. My suggestions are based off my experiences doing what you described for maintenance in similar geography (mowing instead of discing though).

Here is a post from someone who clearly has the experience and describes what is needed, why its needed, and how to use it EXTREMELY well. Excellent response to Longleaf Man's request.

 

[Longleaf man]

Thanks for your post. I cannot afford to spend $100K on equipment at the start of this adventure. I think I want to start with a 50-60 hp tractor and one or two implements, (tandem disk and land leveler?) that will allow me to break up the hard pan of red clay and make the roads smoother. So $40-50K budget. Would a power rake do the same job as the two implements I have mentioned? I have also attached pictures of our two bridges. About $40K for both plus another $14K to repair one after a flood. I have come to the conclusion that only taxpayers should build bridges. Private citizens should stay out of that business. LOL.

 

[txbonds]

Given the fact that you plan to pull a tandem disc and land leveler/grader most of the time, I’ll only add that you should probably get a geared tractor then. I only point it out because at 60 hp, you are still in the range where hydrostatic drive ones are available. Once you go larger, they tend to be mostly all geared.

Given your usage, maybe look at 5 series sized tractors like the Deere 5055, 5065, 5075 models, the Kioti RX6620/7320 models, the Kubota 7060, New Holland Workmaster/Powerstar 75 models, MF 4707, etc. Will give you more weight, power, stability and strength for pulling that disc all day than the 4 series sized tractor like mine.

The challenge will be buying the tractor and two implements within your stated budget. I’d start by picking the best local dealer and then go from there. A good Dealer will be more important than brand in my opinion.

 

[Sportsman762]

Do you have any experience with Rome Equipment?

I do not have experience directly with running Rome equipment but know folks who have. Their stuff is top notch and built heavy!

Do you think I could get by with 1 offset disk, (no more than 5 feet wide) and 1 box scraper to start with?

I do not think an offset disc is appropriate for your application. I will use Amco (a competitor of rome) for reference data. A Amco F17-2622 9. tandem disc weighing with 26 blades 3414 lbs needs 68 minimum hp (not sure why they call it an offset as its a tandem and would not do as well for primary tillage). An Amco LOF-2424 9' offset disc with 24 blades weighing 2392 lbs needs 90 hp min.

Double Offset Tandem Disc Harrow to prepare soil for planting | AMCO Manufacturing Company

The F17 disc, a primary tillage tool for dependable seedbed preparation. Features high-carbon replaceable disc harrow blades and disc harrow bearings.

www.amcomfg.com

Lift Offset Harrow for food plots, gardens, seedbed preparation | AMCO Manufacturing Company

Offset discs are perfect for food plots, logging roads, turn rows, firebreaks, pivot turn management, gardens, seedbed preparation. Comes with 3-point hitch.

www.amcomfg.com

You do not need to cut that deep. If you have areas that are that rutted a heavy duty box blade to move dirt is the first choice. The rippers on the box blade will let you loosen the soil and move it.

The spaces around the tree parcels are about 20-30 feet in width

A 10-14' heavy duty tandem disc will work great in these widths. Two or three passes and your done. I would not buy one with less than 1-1/8" disc gang axles (they have 1-1/8" threads on the end). If you can find a disc with cushion standards that would be best but they are not common in your area.

6 to 10 foot wide brush mower - depends on how large your open areas are and how narrow your roads are

With 20-30' wide fire lanes this is a little small for Longleaf in my opinion. He has miles and miles of fire lanes to maintain. I know it was over 20 hours for me to mow the firelanes and mandatory open spaces on 2,000 acres. The biggest stuff he can run means less passes which means less hours and therefor less wear on equipment. Your suggestion is spot on if he is mowing between trees in young plantings. Your suggestions are good, I just think a wider mower / disc is appropriate.

Do you think I could get by with 1 offset disk, (no more than 5 feet wide) and 1 box scraper to start with

A 10-14' tandem disc and a box scraper are the way to go if you go with a 90-120 hp tractor.

I think I want to start with a 50-60 hp tractor and one or two implements,

I would step up to a 90-120 engine hp tractor. You can go with a little larger equipment and not have to upgrade.

I forgot to mention the damage done to the roads by tree harvesting.

A box blade will do a much better job of leveling those significant ruts. Eventually once you get everything level you might want to consider getting a land plane / grader as they handle smaller ruts well, and do an overall better job on smoothing out a road, however the big ruts you have are going to be a challenge for a land place / grader.

So $40-50K budget.

With that budget:

• A nice tractor that is a little older with 2k or so hours. 30K
• A old farm disc that you take the wings off of is most likely <5k
• A used box blade is 2K

Total 37K. I am a cheap SOB and don't like spending money and know I could score a disc for 3k and a box blade for 1k, however stepping up to a larger utility tractor is worth it.
There is not a huge difference between a good used 50-60hp utility tractor and a 90 hp used utility tractor, probably 2-3k. But you will save it in fuel and time doing all the maintenance you need to do to keep a place like that up. We had a 65 hp utility, but used the 110 hp because it was physically not that much larger and it could handle the implements better. We had a 100 hp also that I actually liked better for mowing levys with because it had a lower center of gravity. I would have been ok using it all the time, but it had a paper thin roof that hated trees, wheras the 110 hp tractor had a thick roof. I enjoyed the work, however it was nice to be able to have time during the summer to do other projects rather than just mow all day. If your discing your speed will be 3-4 mph vs the 6 mph I was doing mowing. If you can get most of it done in two passes then your doing great! One pass mowing sucks as your head is on a swivel trying to avoid hitting stuff on both sides. Three passes means you have to dead head to get to the next job. Two passes is the sweet spot for working width. This is my opinion based off of my experiences. Without seeing the property and having a conversation about your expectations, and ideals I cannot assure you that my opinions will work for you.

Nice bridge! We used two railroad tank cars with the ends cut out as giant culverts to get across the one Bayou.

 

[airbiscuit]

 

[newbury]

Thanks for your post. I cannot afford to spend $100K on equipment at the start of this adventure. I think I want to start with a 50-60 hp tractor and one or two implements, (tandem disk and land leveler?) that will allow me to break up the hard pan of red clay and make the roads smoother. So $40-50K budget. Would a power rake do the same job as the two implements I have mentioned? I have also attached pictures of our two bridges. About $40K for both plus another $14K to repair one after a flood. I have come to the conclusion that only taxpayers should build bridges. Private citizens should stay out of that business. LOL.

A few questions - In your neck of the woods do they have many "off lease" tractors for sale? I've read a lot about them, but mainly in the wheat field area up north.
And about your bridges - bridges that are low enough to get wet in a flood gather flotsam and jetsam and act as a DAM. I had one on my land in Vermont. You need to build a simple bridge that is strong enough to be a DAM bridge or to swing away in high water. Attached such that you can readily pull it back with your 60 HP tractor when the water goes down.
No use fighting mother nature. She's a mother.

 

[Longleaf man]

A few questions - In your neck of the woods do they have many "off lease" tractors for sale? I've read a lot about them, but mainly in the wheat field area up north.
And about your bridges - bridges that are low enough to get wet in a flood gather flotsam and jetsam and act as a DAM. I had one on my land in Vermont. You need to build a simple bridge that is strong enough to be a DAM bridge or to swing away in high water. Attached such that you can readily pull it back with your 60 HP tractor when the water goes down.
No use fighting mother nature. She's a mother.

The bridge that was damaged by the flood remained intact but some of the concrete "building blocks" were moved and created the need for repairs. The "building blocks" are about 4 feet square and 6 feet long and look sort of like giant Legos. Probably weigh several tons. Mother Nature had the last at bat and moved several out of position. Must have been a helluva flood.
The only dealer nearby is a John Deere dealer and I have not contacted them. I would prefer used for price. What about a pull behind road grader like the Landloll? Seems to check most of my boxes and might also work for fire breaks? could be hard to maneuver for the firebreaks though.

 

[Longleaf man]

I do not have experience directly with running Rome equipment but know folks who have. Their stuff is top notch and built heavy!


I do not think an offset disc is appropriate for your application. I will use Amco (a competitor of rome) for reference data. A Amco F17-2622 9. tandem disc weighing with 26 blades 3414 lbs needs 68 minimum hp (not sure why they call it an offset as its a tandem and would not do as well for primary tillage). An Amco LOF-2424 9' offset disc with 24 blades weighing 2392 lbs needs 90 hp min.

Double Offset Tandem Disc Harrow to prepare soil for planting | AMCO Manufacturing Company

The F17 disc, a primary tillage tool for dependable seedbed preparation. Features high-carbon replaceable disc harrow blades and disc harrow bearings.

www.amcomfg.com

Lift Offset Harrow for food plots, gardens, seedbed preparation | AMCO Manufacturing Company

Offset discs are perfect for food plots, logging roads, turn rows, firebreaks, pivot turn management, gardens, seedbed preparation. Comes with 3-point hitch.

www.amcomfg.com

You do not need to cut that deep. If you have areas that are that rutted a heavy duty box blade to move dirt is the first choice. The rippers on the box blade will let you loosen the soil and move it.

A 10-14' heavy duty tandem disc will work great in these widths. Two or three passes and your done. I would not buy one with less than 1-1/8" disc gang axles (they have 1-1/8" threads on the end). If you can find a disc with cushion standards that would be best but they are not common in your area.

With 20-30' wide fire lanes this is a little small for Longleaf in my opinion. He has miles and miles of fire lanes to maintain. I know it was over 20 hours for me to mow the firelanes and mandatory open spaces on 2,000 acres. The biggest stuff he can run means less passes which means less hours and therefor less wear on equipment. Your suggestion is spot on if he is mowing between trees in young plantings. Your suggestions are good, I just think a wider mower / disc is appropriate.


A 10-14' tandem disc and a box scraper are the way to go if you go with a 90-120 hp tractor.


I would step up to a 90-120 engine hp tractor. You can go with a little larger equipment and not have to upgrade.


A box blade will do a much better job of leveling those significant ruts. Eventually once you get everything level you might want to consider getting a land plane / grader as they handle smaller ruts well, and do an overall better job on smoothing out a road, however the big ruts you have are going to be a challenge for a land place / grader.


With that budget:

• A nice tractor that is a little older with 2k or so hours. 30K
• A old farm disc that you take the wings off of is most likely <5k
• A used box blade is 2K

Total 37K. I am a cheap SOB and don't like spending money and know I could score a disc for 3k and a box blade for 1k, however stepping up to a larger utility tractor is worth it.
There is not a huge difference between a good used 50-60hp utility tractor and a 90 hp used utility tractor, probably 2-3k. But you will save it in fuel and time doing all the maintenance you need to do to keep a place like that up. We had a 65 hp utility, but used the 110 hp because it was physically not that much larger and it could handle the implements better. We had a 100 hp also that I actually liked better for mowing levys with because it had a lower center of gravity. I would have been ok using it all the time, but it had a paper thin roof that hated trees, wheras the 110 hp tractor had a thick roof. I enjoyed the work, however it was nice to be able to have time during the summer to do other projects rather than just mow all day. If your discing your speed will be 3-4 mph vs the 6 mph I was doing mowing. If you can get most of it done in two passes then your doing great! One pass mowing sucks as your head is on a swivel trying to avoid hitting stuff on both sides. Three passes means you have to dead head to get to the next job. Two passes is the sweet spot for working width. This is my opinion based off of my experiences. Without seeing the property and having a conversation about your expectations, and ideals I cannot assure you that my opinions will work for you.

Nice bridge! We used two railroad tank cars with the ends cut out as giant culverts to get across the one Bayou.

Thanks. See my comment below about the bridge that was damaged by the flood! So the disk would need to be pretty narrow for the fire breaks. I think our local Georgia Foresty Commission uses Rome tandem disks that they pull behind a dozer. They also use Rome plows when the fires get out of control. I would prefer not to use the plows because of erosion.