220V Plused spray MIG welders?

[MinnesotaEric]

Tell you someting bout what to expect when machine need service?

I'm with Yo on de Fronius, but I sure ain't cookin enough wire any more to cost justify machine.
ESAB & TD both part of same holding company based on what I reading. TD crapped out bad when dey went from black & Gray to purple. Brilliant beancounter management lost a lot of Hobart Bros information and dey scrapped all de Hobart parts rather den sort & sell. TD 1gun was head & shoulders ahead for a while, think dey lost dat advantage too.

Little red guy got fine reputation all over and management knows what dey talkin. Whole industry been playin MBA last 15 years and crash about due to come.

Tell you what, that sales guy became the biggest hinderance to further investigation. I shared that I was also looking at the Miller 255 and he immediately wanted to talk to me about a lower spec machine because he thought he had to make a close comparison between a $3400 Miller and what a deal his $1600 251 welder is! Unaware that whatever I buy is a 179 write off and all of it will be taken straight off so a $3400 welder saves me $1200 on taxes and costs me only $2400 to get into. Inside sales guy did realize I was comparing different capability machines, and I agreed with him, explaining that he should think about it as though I'm looking at a light truck, a medium truck or a heavy truck. He still didn't seem to understand I was comparing price to expanded capability with perceived support. Never did get a quote from him either.

That said once anybody business expresses the urge to go public, in come the MBAs and the beans are sorted and ordered. I get it. Even so, well run businesses will still count the beans to reduce the risk of waste.

Anyway, I don't know anything about the little red company other than an ad for them popped up and I looked at their website with an iPhone (which is always an underwhelming experience for fact-finding) and they looked expensive. Tell me more if I'm missing out, Fredd.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I don't think you talked to me. You could have asked me about it. There is no comparison if you are looking at pulse. The nod goes to the Miller. He was right about telling you to buy it, if not in the wrong way.
The 275 is manual pulse. You can't compare apples and oranges. The 275P is for experienced users of pulse only who know how to set things up and do some trialing and is not going to perform well on pulsed aluminum. For the average user, the 255 Miller would be the better unit in that show down. The 275P can be fairly well used with steel and stainless, but it takes a lot of trial and error to get where you need to be. With that said, I've welded .030" stainless coupons with the machine that achieved 0 sugaring and very little color change and warping but had perfect penetration. But that took about 2 hours of testing different things. It's fine for production in that siense since once you set it, you forget it.

Now, we do have the Power i MIG 253dpi and the 353dpi that are comparable models to the 255. In addition to being synergic (like the 255 from miller) you also have double pulse as well as single pulse. The Miller is only single pulse. I"ve sold a lot of them to people who've worked with Miller pulse migs and they mostly agree that the 253dpi is better.

I've watched Miller's own people demo the 255 in videos and they are not as refined on the pulse as ours in both sound spatter etc.. I also have heard from people who have demoed them personally and eventually bought ours. They are happy with that decision. The Everlast outstrips the 255 in many areas. I've sold a lot, even to exotic car guys and body shops who use them for varied applications, and the millers weren't even on their radar. Also sold them to armored car manufacturers too. They have been quite happy.

Not sure what you mean by "blow a gasket". But it wasn't as if you were comparing light duty versus heavy duty trucks. It was more like you were comparing a station wagon, and an SUV. If you want to spend comparable money for taxes just look at the 353 dpi and you get the super duty pickup on the budget you have for the 255.

 

[user.69169]

Anyway, I don't know anything about the little red company other than an ad for them popped up and I looked at their website with an iPhone (which is always an underwhelming experience for fact-finding) and they looked expensive. Tell me more if I'm missing out, Fredd.

Only thing special about HTP/USAweld I see is they look to be customer satisfaction oriented. Never in de years I know of dem have I heard bad report on company or of a machine dat was a UPS Yoyo. Owner of company seems to be main sales point, knows machines he sells and may have hand in design as well. Freely admits machines made in Italy, has consumables in stock, and answers de phone.

Last few years I been buyin all my wire from dem, never a problem, bout 3 day delivery, and if out of stock dey tell me honest when can be at my door.

If you absolutely gotta do mail order give dem heavy consideration. You insist on blue ITW machine try IOC. Dey pioneered mail order drop ship machines and tend to have good inventory. Lot de drop ship is just fat guy in jammies wid bucket of chicken answering phone and readin screen. ITW blue crapped on most de dealers who built Miller Bros market share since 1960s.
Also need to bear in mind ITWblue game of obsoleting machines and making parts NLA. Der other sources, but I ain't happy wid dat game. Blue screwed too many welders wid MM-250.

Far as Iphone concerned, you not want (removed)'s opinion of thing I need reading glasses to see. Screen do make good chippin hammer target.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

I don't think you talked to me. You could have asked me about it. There is no comparison if you are looking at pulse. The nod goes to the Miller. He was right about telling you to buy it, if not in the wrong way.
The 275 is manual pulse. You can't compare apples and oranges. The 275P is for experienced users of pulse only who know how to set things up and do some trialing and is not going to perform well on pulsed aluminum. For the average user, the 255 Miller would be the better unit in that show down. The 275P can be fairly well used with steel and stainless, but it takes a lot of trial and error to get where you need to be. With that said, I've welded .030" stainless coupons with the machine that achieved 0 sugaring and very little color change and warping but had perfect penetration. But that took about 2 hours of testing different things. It's fine for production in that siense since once you set it, you forget it.

Now, we do have the Power i MIG 253dpi and the 353dpi that are comparable models to the 255. In addition to being synergic (like the 255 from miller) you also have double pulse as well as single pulse. The Miller is only single pulse. I"ve sold a lot of them to people who've worked with Miller pulse migs and they mostly agree that the 253dpi is better.

I've watched Miller's own people demo the 255 in videos and they are not as refined on the pulse as ours in both sound spatter etc.. I also have heard from people who have demoed them personally and eventually bought ours. They are happy with that decision. The Everlast outstrips the 255 in many areas. I've sold a lot, even to exotic car guys and body shops who use them for varied applications, and the millers weren't even on their radar. Also sold them to armored car manufacturers too. They have been quite happy.

Not sure what you mean by "blow a gasket". But it wasn't as if you were comparing light duty versus heavy duty trucks. It was more like you were comparing a station wagon, and an SUV. If you want to spend comparable money for taxes just look at the 353 dpi and you get the super duty pickup on the budget you have for the 255.

Thanks for popping in, Mark. I appreciate it.

If I've understood correctly, there is no pulse Mig on the MTS275, but there is on your 253dpi and the 353dpi.

Questions: I realize the MTS275 can use a 4" spool gun, but reading through the options for the MTS275, I thought the MTS275 could get an 0.35 aluminum liner for its 10' mig gun and aluminum spool wheels and be set up with an 8 or 12" aluminum spool without the use of a push-pull gun? I read the owners manual where is says that there is no push-pull gun available. Why is this? Can't a push-pull gun be made to work with it? I have docks and trailers in mind for Mig process.

I thought your Power-Set button is your version of synergic set-up and is available on all modes except dual shield mig?

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

The units are not set up for dual shield use. The dual shield is a high voltage setup. It's a higher than normal volt/amp ratio and the unit isn't designed for that. For dual shield you need a larger unit. You won't find dual shield selection on Miller's multi-matic 220 either, I guess for this reason. Additionally, it is a marginal percentage of our market that use dual shield. It is on our radar, but it is not being fast tracked for our powerset function. If you want to run dual shield, it can be better done on our Power i MIG 315.

Yes, you can get a liner and drive rolls and it feeds just fine with the 10 foot gun. Push pull capability costs money to the user. We have to make a machine that appeals to the masses in a multi unit and one that appeals on price. The dual shield market is not going to sell but a few doze machines more a year, and likely the cost increase would lose a few sales too. Again, push pull on a multi-machine like that is low priority. It will be done eventually, but everything adds cost and a machine that hits the market without reputation needs to build reputation at a price that makes people interested. This is/was the problem with Fronius. Excellent machines, but nobody has heard of them (by comparison, not that they aren't heard of at all) and their prices are above the market even though they claim to do anything and everything perfectly...only a few could afford them. Their prices have dropped as a result too. We have better machines that are more purpose driven that do have push/pull capability that better line up with with those applications, like the 253dpi and 353 Dpi. push-pull require special wire feeders than can vary torque etc. Everything has a cost and a market.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

The units are not set up for dual shield use. The dual shield is a high voltage setup. It's a higher than normal volt/amp ratio and the unit isn't designed for that. For dual shield you need a larger unit. You won't find dual shield selection on Miller's multi-matic 220 either, I guess for this reason. Additionally, it is a marginal percentage of our market that use dual shield. It is on our radar, but it is not being fast tracked for our powerset function. If you want to run dual shield, it can be better done on our Power i MIG 315.

Yes, you can get a liner and drive rolls and it feeds just fine with the 10 foot gun. Push pull capability costs money to the user. We have to make a machine that appeals to the masses in a multi unit and one that appeals on price. The dual shield market is not going to sell but a few doze machines more a year, and likely the cost increase would lose a few sales too. Again, push pull on a multi-machine like that is low priority. It will be done eventually, but everything adds cost and a machine that hits the market without reputation needs to build reputation at a price that makes people interested. This is/was the problem with Fronius. Excellent machines, but nobody has heard of them (by comparison, not that they aren't heard of at all) and their prices are above the market even though they claim to do anything and everything perfectly...only a few could afford them. Their prices have dropped as a result too. We have better machines that are more purpose driven that do have push/pull capability that better line up with with those applications, like the 253dpi and 353 Dpi. push-pull require special wire feeders than can vary torque etc. Everything has a cost and a market.

Thank you for the explanation. What about the Power-Set button on the MTS275? isn't that your version of synergic set-up and is that feature is available on all modes except mig?

 

[MinnesotaEric]

The units are not set up for dual shield use. The dual shield is a high voltage setup. It's a higher than normal volt/amp ratio and the unit isn't designed for that. For dual shield you need a larger unit. You won't find dual shield selection on Miller's multi-matic 220 either, I guess for this reason. Additionally, it is a marginal percentage of our market that use dual shield. It is on our radar, but it is not being fast tracked for our powerset function. If you want to run dual shield, it can be better done on our Power i MIG 315.

Yes, you can get a liner and drive rolls and it feeds just fine with the 10 foot gun. Push pull capability costs money to the user. We have to make a machine that appeals to the masses in a multi unit and one that appeals on price. The dual shield market is not going to sell but a few doze machines more a year, and likely the cost increase would lose a few sales too. Again, push pull on a multi-machine like that is low priority. It will be done eventually, but everything adds cost and a machine that hits the market without reputation needs to build reputation at a price that makes people interested. This is/was the problem with Fronius. Excellent machines, but nobody has heard of them (by comparison, not that they aren't heard of at all) and their prices are above the market even though they claim to do anything and everything perfectly...only a few could afford them. Their prices have dropped as a result too. We have better machines that are more purpose driven that do have push/pull capability that better line up with with those applications, like the 253dpi and 353 Dpi. push-pull require special wire feeders than can vary torque etc. Everything has a cost and a market.

Thank you for the explanation. What about the Power-Set button on the MTS275? isn't that your version of synergic set-up and is that feature is available on all modes except mig?

 

[user.69169]

View from a different seat, One size don't fit all. If it did bras wouldn't need come in different sizes.

Far as aluminum concerned, might be a mistake lookin fer 1 machine does aluminum & steel. My world ain't enough aluminum to justify machine. Got a spoolgun stays in its bag most de time. Machine it fits runs way more steel then aluminum. Picked up a fine aluminum mig machine for cheap from fellow selling cause didn't do steel worth a dam according to him. Might have been because roll of E70-s6 in gun wrong size for tip, or might have been running Argon. Looked like crap outside, inside looked like just left factory. Walked away wid machine, spool gun & 2 cylinder for less den cost of cylinders. Machine made by small Pennsylvania company designed as power unit for either spool gun or feeder.

Now I readin what you post, and let out drop by drip. Straight up what I see is young fellow wid idea he wants to build aluminum docks, thinks got enough market to make buck at it, got idea new aluminum able machine increase profit.
OK, I also see young guy stuck on Retail Road. Man generally works from his experience, and often learns expensively if he learns.

I close to a shop makes truckloads of docks, all steel, mostly tube & pipe wid lot of angle. Set up well wid jigs to build docks usin MIG machines. Machines all old Hobart Bros power units wid Hobart Bros feeders on swing booms so machine not in way and man welds instead of moving machine.

I put 2 together in my head stir a little and come up wid you probably best served wid power unit driving CobraMatic. Whole lot more money stay in your pocket wid Cobra suitcase holding big spool den gun holding 1 pound spool & changin.
Next think current method of welding equipment marketing probably means you noplace close to LWS sells Cobra or got help can set you up wid Cobra and power unit. Cobra de gold standard based on work I see done wid Cobras.

Also can't help but notice you at point where you need to get off Retail Road and do some learnin bout what exists in new world of welding. Used to be de LWS provide dat service, but no more, so you gotta do it er wish you did.
Good starting place
Catalogue - Superior Consumables

Dis guy got some good info, company oriented but dey pay him
MIG Gun Liner Types & Best Practices

Maybe oracle of information on snakes is MK.
MK Products | Cobra Welding Systems | Orbital Tube Welding Equipment

Best thing way I see is wid all people goin out of business, lot of Cobramatic showin up on ebay and bookface. People who knew de machines retired, nobody knows where to get consumables, machine is dusty, go buy neww is de mentality of 20s. I passed Cobra wid ITWblue supply fer $600 in a boat yard. Seller had "New Improved"~~~~~ Called him back few weeks later, New Improved was on truck back to seller and Snake was makin him money.

Decision you make totally yers. Best if you make it wid lot of knowledge.
Maybe you even look into renting wid option to buy. Economy bein what is der lot of equipment lookin fer home & job.

 

[yomax4]

Look up Lorch 320SP OR Thermal Arc 320 SP on the web. If what you see is what you want I may be able to help you own one for a fraction of retail. Python push pull and all the fixins. Lorch and Fronius are Lincoln and Miller of Europe except Europe is light years ahead of the states. PM to discuss.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Look up Lorch 320SP OR Thermal Arc 320 SP on the web. If what you see is what you want I may be able to help you own one for a fraction of retail. Python push pull and all the fixins. Lorch and Fronius are Lincoln and Miller of Europe except Europe is light years ahead of the states. PM to discuss.

I'm having a hard time finding out anything about them. Some old videos. It appears that they were high-end ten years ago and there are three used ones for sale on eBay for $4k each.

Edit: I found this sales brochure. It looks like an awesome welder that can do everything including work with robot welding. https://www.esabna.com/shared/documents/litdownloads/84-2912.pdf

Does ESAB have something like that or is it still a current model?