4 in 1 bucket vs grapple, which would you buy and why?

[CPM]

Hi All,

I'm a first time buyer and have been discussing various model Kubota's in that forum but someone suggested I post here for advice on whether I should go for a 4in1 or grapple.

I have about 25 acres, some will be slashed and the rest has trees and rocks, which I'll use for walls, decoration etc.

The dealer thinks I should go for a 4in1 but I'm wondering what I'd miss if I went for a standard FEL and a grapple instead of the 4in1.

Also, the dealer wants to offer me the MX5100 but he says the frame isn't that strong for adding a Backhoe at a later date, compared to an L model.

Advice, input, experience offered much appreciated! Thanks

 

[AKfish]

I've got 20 acres that I've been clearing for hay fields, pastures and building sites for a number of years now.

When you clear an area there's alot of material! So, I didn't plan on just picking up a few trees at a time or a stump or two every couple of weeks. My plan was to clear trees and stumps! :thumbsup:

IMO - a 4n1 is a great "catch-all" unit! Grab a down tree limb, get that rock outta the way, move a bit of dirt or compost.

But, if you need to move lots of trees or roots or stumps - get a dedicated grapple! If you need to move lot's of dirt or gravel - get a dedicated bucket! With a skid-steer attachment system it takes all of 2-3 minutes to swap one for the other.

And the price you'll pay for a good HD 4n1 is just about equal to a separate grapple and bucket combo.

AKfish

 

[qstott]

I agree with AKfish. If you could only have one, a 4n1 is the way to go. But, if you could have both, do it. It's a lot easier to pick up logs with a grapple, and the claws will help you pinch a lot more brush than a 4n1. However, I couldn't make do without my bucket. Depending on the size, a 4n1 may be better for rocks than a grapple.

 

[greg_g]

Given the tasks you anticipate, my vote goes to the 4-in-1 also. But I have no backhoe experience, so I'm not qualified to address your second question. On that, I'd go to a second dealer. If they make the same claim - unsolicited - I'd say the heavier duty model is the way to go.

//greg//

 

[CurlyDave]

I have both a 4-n-1 and a grapple.

The 4-n-1 is more like a Swiss Army knife. It can do a lot of things passably, but only a few things well.

I bought the grapple after using the 4-n-1 for about a year. If budget was an issue, I would get a standard bucket and a grapple.

Right now, I am contemplating getting a used skid steer bucket with teeth for digging with the FEL.

If I do get one, I will used the 4-n-1 as my "keep it on the machine for general use" bucket, the grapple for logs, rocks, etc., and the digging bucket for digging.

Is this overkill? I don't know but it sure makes sense to me.

 

[CPM]

Thanks for the responses.

People keep mentioning a "skid steer loader". When I went back to the dealer they said they didn't deal with those...

What is it and how is it different to the normal loader which comes with some models - which are supposed to be quick attach loaders?

 

[crazyangel]

Thanks for the responses.

People keep mentioning a "skid steer loader". When I went back to the dealer they said they didn't deal with those...

What is it and how is it different to the normal loader which comes with some models - which are supposed to be quick attach loaders?

I think what most folks are referring to is the Skid Steer Quick Attach System (sometimes abbreviated as SSQA) which is available on most tractors now for a small up charge (~$350-450). It makes changing out the implements super convenient and a huge time saver. Kubota has the universal system, and any skid steer bucket (or other attachment) will fit on the loader. Keep in mind though that while you can mount any skid steer attachment on the FEL, most tractors do not have the same hydraulic flow of a skid steer. So hydraulically operated skid steer implements are usually not a great match for a tractor.

Are you working with a Kubota dealer? I am really surprised that they are not willing to sell you the quick attach for the FEL. I might be inclined to ask them again just to me sure its not a miscommunication, and be clear that you are looking for the quick attach on the FEL rather than an actual skid steer.

:2cents: on a 4 in 1 is that it is a jack of all trades but master of none. It does a lot of things pretty good, but you have to make compromises to get that kind of versatility. It really depends on your personal needs, but for me a separate bucket and root grapple with the SSQA is the right fit. YMMV.

 

[CurlyDave]

I was actually thinking of a skid steer bucket, which has the SSQA, but is slightly differently shaped than a tractor bucket.

My reasoning was that they are more common on the used market, thus probably priced a bit lower.

 

[CPM]

Are you working with a Kubota dealer? I am really surprised that they are not willing to sell you the quick attach for the FEL. I might be inclined to ask them again just to me sure its not a miscommunication, and be clear that you are looking for the quick attach on the FEL rather than an actual skid steer.

I think it probably was a misunderstanding by the dealer. The models I'm looking at mention Quick Detach so I'm assuming it's the same thing.

Is it worth getting the teeth on a 4in1 bucket? Would this help dig stones out a little better? Presumably there may be some drawback if I wanted to scoop up sand or something?

My budget is limited at this point so I'm trying to get a good all rounder with the possibility to buy dedicated attachments later.

 

[Cantoo]

I have a L35 TLB and more than several buckets. I will not say exactly how many because my wife might read this thread someday. My buckets are ssqa style and not the Kubota quick attach style. Most of my buckets are used and several I have modified for my uses. I don't have a 4 way and don't think I am missing anything much. Grapples are handy for moving brush and branches, mine doesn't open as far as I would like but it's still way more than a 4 way opens. If you are considering a backhoe at a later date I would suggest looking at a TLB now. The hoe will be useful for digging up stumps and deeper rocks.

 

[CPM]

I have a L35 TLB and more than several buckets. I will not say exactly how many because my wife might read this thread someday. My buckets are ssqa style and not the Kubota quick attach style. Most of my buckets are used and several I have modified for my uses. I don't have a 4 way and don't think I am missing anything much. Grapples are handy for moving brush and branches, mine doesn't open as far as I would like but it's still way more than a 4 way opens. If you are considering a backhoe at a later date I would suggest looking at a TLB now. The hoe will be useful for digging up stumps and deeper rocks.

It looks like the only Kubota TLB here in Australia is the B26 which I don't think will be strong enough for my needs.

 

[Rustyiron]

I have had both, first the 4n1 then a grapple. And now I have what I really wanted but spent a lot to get to. I mean a "Root Rake" that has an open tine bottom with 2 "grapples" that will close down to capture your load. I found the 4n1 and the grapple handy but not the best thing for cleaning up in the woods. I was cleaning the woods and putting it into a burn pile and they would gather up a lot of dirt (not good for a fire). I have since sold the 4n1 as I only really ever used it to spread gravel (from a pile), I'd scoop up a bucket full and then open the bucket slightly while moving. The other chore that it was great for was "pinching" up that last little bit for clean up. I got rid of the grappel as well for the same reasons. Other than that it was not so great picking up logs or bursh in the woods. It does not have the visibility either, with the open tines you can look right at what your doing.:thumbsup:
If you meant a bucket with a grapple that closes down on it, look into a root rake type grapple. Very handy! Skid Steer Loader Attachments

 

[Code54]

On a side note I would be a little concerned with any dealer that says the 5100 can't handle a hoe. Heck Kubota makes one with a mounting kit for that exact machine. I have run hoes on far smaller machines without a problem so that is kind of shaky advices.
As for buckets, 4n1's are nice but separate buckets are even nicer

 

[Ken45101]

I have debated about a 4n1 bucket. However, from what I understand, it is easy to twist them out of shape picking up irregular loads, like a log that's 6" on one side and 2" on the other.

Grapples: there are VERY different styles and how well they operate will vary greatly depending on your needs.

I have a "root grapple" (I think). The front of the tines is upturned and it has two independent clamps. It works well for grabbing lots of brush. It is not very good for grabbing logs. It has to be "stood on end" to get under the logs and it is difficult to grab more than one or two logs. If they are small logs, the clamps will not close far enough to hold onto the logs.

There are clamshell grapples which I would think do a better job of holding smaller logs. There are also grapples with tines low to the ground which would be better at slipping under logs (and maybe brush).

Generally true skid steer attachments are bigger and heavier than some of the attachments made for smaller tractors. Some of the really heavy duty 4n1 buckets can weigh close to 1000# which is taking up a lot of the capacity of the smaller tractor loaders.

Hydraulic lines: if you get something like a grapple, you will, of course, need hydraulic lines to the front. Size and capacity isn't really much of an issue. Yes, it might close a bit slower, but ultimately it will still work with the same pressure. Where hydraulic flow really counts is where you are using something with a hydraulic motor, such as a rotary cutter, auger, saw, etc.

As for adding a backhoe, most tractors need a "subframe" for a backhoe. It is just not wise to attach them only via the 3 pt hitch. They aren't strong enough for that. In most tractors, the engine alone is connecting the front of the tractor to the rear of the tractor! All the stress is on the engine. OTOH, my B21 TLB doesn't even have the 3pt arms installed, they are stored away. The BH is attached to the subframe.

Ken

 

[greg_g]

a log that's 6" on one side and 2" on the other.

That's not a log, that's a cone.

Besides, a typical 4-in-1 has two jaw cylinders; one on either end of the bucket. Pressure is equalized between the two cylinders; when one side jaw grips something that effect bypass, the opposite side simply stops clamping.

//greg//

 

[Ken45101]

Besides, a typical 4-in-1 has two jaw cylinders; one on either end of the bucket. Pressure is equalized between the two cylinders; when one side jaw grips something that effect bypass, the opposite side simply stops clamping.

So you have 2000 psi (or whatever) pressing against the log on one side and pressing against air on the other side. Seems quite capable of twisting something.

As I've said, I've heard that can be a problem. Most grapples have two independent clamps so that they can clamp irregular loads.

Ken

 

[greg_g]

So you have 2000 psi (or whatever) pressing against the log on one side and pressing against air on the other side. Seems quite capable of twisting something.

Sorry Ken, I just can't grasp the concept that "pressing against air" can twist anything. It's not much different than chewing food. And I've been chewing for 64 years without twisting my jaw once.

Most of the add-on bucket grapples I've seen have one center cylinder, a few have had symmetrical side cylinders. Both need only a single controller and two hydraulic hoses. But if I understand your description of "two independent clamps", that pretty much mandates an additional controller valve and four hoses. On a 4-in-1, one controller uses two hoses to operates both jaw cylinders simultaneously. Using your description again, "two independent clamps" on a front loader would need 4 hydraulic circuits (8 hoses) to operate asymmetrically - as opposed to 3 circuits (6 hoses) for a symmetrical 4-in-1 loader. Not that such a device doesn't exist, but a 4th circuit and additional hoses would drive up the price considerably.

//greg//

 

[Ed L]

So you have 2000 psi (or whatever) pressing against the log on one side and pressing against air on the other side. Seems quite capable of twisting something.

As I've said, I've heard that can be a problem. Most grapples have two independent clamps so that they can clamp irregular loads.

Ken

I've had a Bobcat 4 in 1 bucket on my 743 for 20 years now, never had any problems with it twisting when picking up a tapered object like a log. Even grabbing something with one side only does no damage. When I used to do excavating work on a regular basis the 4-1 was a godsend, no more chasing around the last little bit of piled material.
I added a grapple several years ago for working in the woods, moving brush and piling logs. mines the "industrial" type so I can use it as a bucket when needed, like moving a small amount of material or back-dragging an area to smooth it out.

Ed

 

[Ken45101]

Sorry Ken, I just can't grasp the concept that "pressing against air" can twist anything.

Take your aluminum screen door. Have someone on the outside put their foot up against the bottom. Now push with all your might on the top (where nothing but air is supporting it). I'll bet it twists....

Ken

 

[CPM]

On a side note I would be a little concerned with any dealer that says the 5100 can't handle a hoe. Heck Kubota makes one with a mounting kit for that exact machine. I have run hoes on far smaller machines without a problem so that is kind of shaky advices.
As for buckets, 4n1's are nice but separate buckets are even nicer

I think it's an Australian thing. I've seen YouTube videos with a BH92 attached but it doesn't seem to be an option here. Someone elsewhere said it might be a Tax thing with a change of category or something... or possibly that the dealers don't order the sub frame.

Either way, the dealers just seem to want to sell what they have in stock!