Any one use a ventless gas stove for heating.???

[k0ua]

Oh, and I have been cleaning the orifice when the pilot was orange, I figured that out on my own, that if it was burning orange it must be oxygen starved, and I figured it was dirty so I cleaned it out and it restored the pretty blue flame. All just common sense stuff, It it ain't like it was last heating season, then perhaps dust and dirt has settled in the orifice.

 

[JerryK]

Don't want a dirty orifice...... [[[ ]]]

 

[dragoneggs]

I could draw it out and take a picture, but it is too much trouble. Just keep in mind that the carbon atoms have a valence of 4 and the hydrogen is valence of 1 and the oxygen is two.. since propane has 3 carbon atoms and 8 hydrogen atoms.. well you can picture it can't you

Sadly I can picture it. :laughing:

I have a 25,000 BTU ventless propane wall mounted heater in my home office located in the basement. Never had any issues with it and it does a great job heating the room with its built in thermostat. I never open the windows. This thread made me find the old owner's manual and see what all it says about ventilation. First it talks about ventilation classifications per the National Fuel Gas Code, ANS Z223.1... there are three (at least 15 years ago) 1. Unusually Tight Construction, 2. Unconfined Spaces, 3. Confined Spaces. For each, there are definitions/specifications to meet. If anyone is still following I will pull some excerpts.

Unusually Tight Construction = walls and ceilings exposed to the outside atmosphere have a continuous water vapor retarder with a rating of one perm (I'll let you look up the units in US, metric, or SI) with openings gasketed or sealed and, weatherstripping on all openable windows and doors and, caulking applied to areas around windows, door frames, sole plates, between wall/ceiling joints, all plumbing/electrical/gas penetrations, etc.

Confined Space = a space whose volume is less than 50 cubic ft per 1000 BTU per hour of the aggregate input ratings of all appliances installed in that space

Unconfined Space = a space whose volume is more than 50 cubic ft per 1000 BTU per hour...

Per the owner's manual, my heater "shall not be installed in a confined or unusually tight construction unless provisions are provided for adequate combustion and ventilation air". My space does not meet 1. UTC and I did a rough calculation on 'confined' and if my math is right I am okay. Room volume about 1300cu ft and my minimum for size of unit is 1250 so I am 'unconfined' barely. I do leave the interior door open to the rest of the basement though. Interesting little exercise.

There is a very slight 'film' on the windows but they have never been cleaned other than cobwebs in 8 years (guess it's about time :ashamed: ).

 

[k0ua]

Don't want a dirty orifice...... [[[ ]]]

I am always in favor of clean orifices.

 

[tbrooks26]

in my 30+ yrs of installing and working on all types ventless.. I have never seen a case where a ventless heater, logs consumed enough oxygen in the room to activate the ODS pilot system, and shut the heater / logs down..
I have seen it in a controlled environment , during testing ,where the ODS pilot would activate ,and shut down the heater

I built a greenhouse about 10 years ago, 12X30. Worked very hard to make it airtight. When I realized that the electric space heater I had would not be enough, I grabbed an old ventless propane heater from the shed. Built a little stand and hooked it up. The first couple weeks it drove me nuts, it would just not stay on. Then I learned about the ODS. Ended up having to put a 4" pipe down low and leave a window cracked at the top in order for it to run without going out. I also learned from research, that the ODS will kill the flame long before the air becomes hazardous. I also learned burning propane produces alot of water in a greenhouse, way too much actually lol.

Now I'm living in a place with only ventless propane heat, have been for 4 years now. There are logs in the LR and a small wall unit near the bedrooms. Never had any film as previously mentioned. Never have any moisture problems in the winter either, sometimes still need to run a humidifier. I always keep a window cracked about 1/4" in the LR and the other is beside some old leaky windows so I don't worry about it. We also keep fans going, mainly because the house has an awful layout, and the heat needs circulating. The only thing that bothers me, is once a year I have to remember to grab the compressor and blow out around the pilot/ods/igniter. Other wise sooner or later we will wake up one morning freezing our butts off lol.

Also, I thought they added a small amount of sulfur to propane to give it an odor

 

[kenmac]

Oh, and I have been cleaning the orifice when the pilot was orange, I figured that out on my own, that if it was burning orange it must be oxygen starved, and I figured it was dirty so I cleaned it out and it restored the pretty blue flame. All just common sense stuff, It it ain't like it was last heating season, then perhaps dust and dirt has settled in the orifice.

well, orange flame is ok. When the flame is orange, it's just burning dust that is being introduced into the flame via the pilot air shudder.Yellow is what you don't want.. When it's yellow, the pilot is starving for oxygen,. at that point, the pilot flame will lift off the t.couple causing limited voltage to the pilot safety.. If the pilot safety doesn't have enough M.V to hold it, It will drop closed, then the pilot goes out... These ODS pilots have a ruby orifice spud and can be damaged.use caution when claening...Service Bulletin on Oxygen Depletion System

 

[k0ua]

well, orange flame is ok. When the flame is orange, it's just burning dust that is being introduced into the flame via the pilot air shudder.Yellow is what you don't want.. When it's yellow, the pilot is starving for oxygen,. at that point, the pilot flame will lift off the t.couple causing limited voltage to the pilot safety.. If the pilot safety doesn't have enough M.V to hold it, It will drop closed, then the pilot goes out... These ODS pilots have a ruby orifice spud and can be damaged.use caution when claening...Service Bulletin on Oxygen Depletion System

I saved those instructions to a file for future reference

 

[sld]

I have a ventless in one of the garages. It works ok but I can't keep it running constantly very well. I have to open the garage door every now and then to get fresh air in. Not a big deal as once you have the mass heated up the cold air is not a big effect.

 

[dragoneggs]

I have a ventless in one of the garages. It works ok but I can't keep it running constantly very well. I have to open the garage door every now and then to get fresh air in. Not a big deal as once you have the mass heated up the cold air is not a big effect.

Now that you mention it... that would be a great addition to my garage/shop. I have a bit of an issue plumbing from my main tank but I suppose buying a smaller dedicated tank wouldn't be a big problem. Thanks sld! Not sure why I didn't think of that before. I have been using a kerosene portable heater and the kerosene is not cheap and a bit of pain to refill, it, etc.

 

[kenmac]

I have a ventless in one of the garages. It works ok but I can't keep it running constantly very well. I have to open the garage door every now and then to get fresh air in. Not a big deal as once you have the mass heated up the cold air is not a big effect.

you would have to have a very small garage for the heater to be going off because depleting the oxygen in a garage

 

[kenmac]

Now that you mention it... that would be a great addition to my garage/shop. I have a bit of an issue plumbing from my main tank but I suppose buying a smaller dedicated tank wouldn't be a big problem. Thanks sld! Not sure why I didn't think of that before. I have been using a kerosene portable heater and the kerosene is not cheap and a bit of pain to refill, it, etc.

Some people I know use the small 20 # bbq grill tanks for heating for short periods

 

[dragoneggs]

Some people I know use the small 20 # bbq grill tanks for heating for short periods

I do have one of those double burner reflector units that mounts directly on top of a 20lb tank... don't remember the BTU output on it and never felt like it put out the heat I wanted. I guess it worked okay on second thought, but I was always worried about it falling over due to dragging an extension cord or swinging a piece of wood around or whatever. I would love something more permanent mounted on a wall and out of the way. Same issue with my kerosene heater. It's always out in the middle and in the way.

 

[sld]

you would have to have a very small garage for the heater to be going off because depleting the oxygen in a garage

The garage I use it in is a detached 24 x 24 with 11 foot ceiling.

I've always wondered if there is something not quite right. I've been using it for at least the last 10 years with adequate results. Much better than the alternative but I really need to think about getting a real furnace and just punching a hole in the roof for exhaust.

 

[dragoneggs]

The garage I use it in is a detached 24 x 24 with 11 foot ceiling.

I've always wondered if there is something not quite right. I've been using it for at least the last 10 years with adequate results. Much better than the alternative but I really need to think about getting a real furnace and just punching a hole in the roof for exhaust.

And by my math, you could (by code... again 15yr old info) have more than a 100K BTU heater in that space!

 

[kenmac]

The garage I use it in is a detached 24 x 24 with 11 foot ceiling.

I've always wondered if there is something not quite right. I've been using it for at least the last 10 years with adequate results. Much better than the alternative but I really need to think about getting a real furnace and just punching a hole in the roof for exhaust.

Something ain't right with that heater.. It would never burn up enough oxygen in that room to activate the ODS system.. You need to clean the pilot assy. or buy another pilot assy..

 

[dadster4]

Before the era of forced air furnaces we had gravity flow furnaces. 100% efficient natural gas heat. Furnace in the basement was unvented and no return air ducts. Heat went up and cold air drawn to the basement to feed the furnace. The furnace was 70k btu output. That type of furnace was used for decades.

Gravity furnaces still had a flue to vented to a chimney. They did not have a blower to circulate the air inside the home- thus relying on "gravity"...hot air rises. My Grandfather installed them, my Dad converted them to a gas burner from oil, my Dad and I ripped those out and installed an "efficient", 60%, furnace, then I replaced that with a 90% model.

 

[JerryK]

I remember, as a kid MANY years ago, the big monster furnaces in the basement of several of my relatives. Huge air pipes leading from the furnace to several big floor grates upstairs where the heat would naturally rise into the home. Several were modified with 'new fangled' hopper devices that you kept full, and a big screw drive would move coal from the hopper into the the fire area when a thermostat called for more heat. Folks did not even have to get up several times a night to shovel coal into it when it needed more. Modern technology...!!!! We have it so made these days....

 

[tbrooks26]

Gravity furnaces still had a flue to vented to a chimney. They did not have a blower to circulate the air inside the home- thus relying on "gravity"...hot air rises. My Grandfather installed them, my Dad converted them to a gas burner from oil, my Dad and I ripped those out and installed an "efficient", 60%, furnace, then I replaced that with a 90% model.

Now thats job security!

 

[ultrarunner]

I remember, as a kid MANY years ago, the big monster furnaces in the basement of several of my relatives. Huge air pipes leading from the furnace to several big floor grates upstairs where the heat would naturally rise into the home. Several were modified with 'new fangled' hopper devices that you kept full, and a big screw drive would move coal from the hopper into the the fire area when a thermostat called for more heat. Folks did not even have to get up several times a night to shovel coal into it when it needed more. Modern technology...!!!! We have it so made these days....

My 1922 unit was converted to gas in 1930... still works like a champ... silent warm air throughout the house...

I really loved that furnace when I lived there... no loud blower to deal with and when power was out for almost a week that furnace never missed a beat...

 

[crackerjack222]

in my 30+ yrs of installing and working on all types ventless.. I have never seen a case where a ventless heater, logs consumed enough oxygen in the room to activate the ODS pilot system, and shut the heater / logs down..

I believe the low O2 was the result of a combination of the high altitude (8850'), plus running both the ventless propane heater and the wood stove (without outside air provisions) in the same room. The room is 24x18 vaulted ceiling and with a ceiling fan. At any rate, cracking a window seemed to solve the problem after a few minutes. I have only seen this happen maybe once or twice in 12 years, although we are only there for about two weeks at a time every few months.

And kenmac, thanks for posting the link to the explanation of how the ODS works. I just installed last month another ventless 20k btu propane heater in our now finished basement. I noticed that from time to time that the pilot jumps away from the end of the tube and makes noise while doing so. In the 10 days we had it on it only lost pilot one time. This heater is a different brand (Mr. Heater ?) than the one I have been using for 12 years. I dont believe there was any reason for the O2 to be low in the basement (other than the altitude factor) at that time. Unfortunately, this was two weeks ago and I dont remember the color of the pilot flame. If you have any thoughts or suggestions re this potential problem, I would appreciate your insight.