Auto vs shift

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in the case of a hydro shuttle vs shuttle shift on a geared tractor, the former is clearly superior. re: gear vs hst wars, it's meaningless to attribute a better or worse scenario,
this is a compact/sub forum, of course hst prevails among members

there is a very good reason why larger utility M series tractors are gear. the hyd shuttle gear is icing on the cake. to say one system is better than the other is naive & meaningless

Correct… but no one did say one is better overall.
Each is better in certain situations.

 

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Glad about this discussion.
I resolved what’s really bothering me and has little to do with the tractor.
Has more to do with the species itself.

There are certainly merits to both kinds and simply said, persons may need one over the other for whatever.
As I have stated, I have steered ppl to what I thought was better for them.
It’s the unreasoned picking a type because they are too lazy to do one simple thing..
So confronting this on almost a daily basis is disheartening to me as to the direction we are going.

 

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in the case of a hydro shuttle vs shuttle shift on a geared tractor, the former is clearly superior. re: gear vs hst wars, it's meaningless to attribute a better or worse scenario,
this is a compact/sub forum, of course hst prevails among members

there is a very good reason why larger utility M series tractors are gear. the hyd shuttle gear is icing on the cake. to say one system is better than the other is naive & meaningless

The contrast lessons considerably with a power shift tractor.

 

[drizler]

12 years with my shuttle and I see one big disadvantage that really bugs me. For moving dirt around and such things I always seem to be between gear ranges. That is irritating. I like to ease into whatever then have a ways to go high range to transport it or I’m all day in mid 4th going to where it dumps. If I leave it in mid all the time using 1 and 4 I will die of old age getting there.

 

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You are correct

Are people complaining about the hydros or bringing them back to trade in on gear tractors? If not, they must be happy with them.

I’ve had returns as such because ppl didn’t believe what I was trying to tell them. Why they think the tryout at the dealership was going to be different when they get it home, is always amazing to me.
It’s as if they convince themselves that the convenience is worth more than the reality they confront.
If a person has no reference to compare, ignorance is bliss.

 

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12 years with my shuttle and I see one big disadvantage that really bugs me. For moving dirt around and such things I always seem to be between gear ranges. That is irritating. I like to ease into whatever then have a ways to go high range to transport it or I’m all day in mid 4th going to where it dumps. If I leave it in mid all the time using 1 and 4 I will die of old age getting there.

So when you’re say in second easing into a pile, don’t you have the opportunity to shift into high range for transport while still staying in second?
I do that with mine all the time and find it very handy.
What’s your tractor?

 

[Eagle1]

Having used both, HST for me. Steep ground, thick woods, deep ditches to clean, lot of loader work, little mowing. Flatter ground I might use a gear tractor but for keeping up with roads, trails, round bales and firewood I personally found HST to more useful.

 

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Having used both, HST for me. Steep ground, thick woods, deep ditches to clean, lot of loader work, little mowing. Flatter ground I might use a gear tractor but for keeping up with roads, trails, round bales and firewood I personally found HST to more useful.

At least you have reasons as to which you like better.
Im talking about the customer who has none and insists on the hydros on hearsay.
But again, the discussion is not so much on personal, acknowledged preferences.
It is more about what I’m experiencing selling to society.

 

[ptsg]

So when you’re say in second easing into a pile, don’t you have the opportunity to shift into high range for transport while still staying in second?
I do that with mine all the time and find it very handy.
What’s your tractor?

Same here. Just moved around 5 tons of dirt and rocks yesterday to open space for more olive trees.

Approaching the pile in low range, 3rd gear. Get a full bucket, put it in reverse and switch to Med range. Drive to the dump place, dump, and back to the pile and repeat. All of this using the foot throttle. No engine revved to the moon, no HST noise. The shuttle is super nice and easy to use.

 

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Same here. Just moved around 5 tons of dirt and rocks yesterday to open space for more olive trees.

Approaching the pile in low range, 3rd gear. Get a full bucket, put it in reverse and switch to Med range. Drive to the dump place, dump, and back to the pile and repeat. All of this using the foot throttle. No engine revved to the moon, no HST noise. The shuttle is super nice and easy to use.

Ah…and therein lies the point.

Driving a shuttle is not akin to lifting that 100 lb weight with your body and putting it over there 50 times.

But some of my customers think that’s what I’m asking them to do if I suggest a shuttle over a hydro for their particular needs.
It’s getting to be like saying the words, “ nuclear energy”.
Automatic connotations of the world ending in a melted slag.

 

[Jstpssng]

I've had my hydro since 2017, and am just learning how to keep from stalling when pushing snow. On a geared tractor you push down on the pedal when the engine starts to lug...
Now I'm working on shifting from low to mid range. It was easy with my shuttle shift L275- throw in the clutch, blip the throttle, shift and go. Without the foot throttle I find it takes some frigging to change range.

The only reason I didn't buy a geared 3301 is because they don't have a live PTO.

 

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I've had my hydro since 2017, and am just learning how to keep from stalling when pushing snow. On a geared tractor you push down on the pedal when the engine starts to lug...
Now I'm working on shifting from low to mid range. It was easy with my shuttle shift L275- throw in the clutch, blip the throttle, shift and go. Without the foot throttle I find it takes some frigging to change range.

The only reason I didn't buy a geared 3301 is because they don't have a live PTO.

I think they do now.
I thought the 3302DT has live.

 

[Jstpssng]

I think they do now.
I thought the 3302DT has live.

Probably. They weren't made in 2017.

 

[ptsg]

Ah…and therein lies the point.

Driving a shuttle is not akin to lifting that 100 lb weight with your body and putting it over there 50 times.

But some of my customers think that’s what I’m asking them to do if I suggest a shuttle over a hydro for their particular needs.
It’s getting to be like saying the words, “ nuclear energy”.
Automatic connotations of the world ending in a melted slag.

Like you said before, they buy based on hearsay and based on a whole bunch of myths that gets spread out there, on a daily basis.

 

[KennyG]

I'm sure there is still good applications for geared tractors, but I would never want to give up my hydro. For any application that uses the PTO, the hydro is great to be able to keep the rpm up and infinitely vary the ground speed. Back in the day it would have been great to have an HST tractor for baling when you had to keep clutching to keep the baler from clogging.

 

[Sportsman762]

I can pull a loaded trailer on the road with my geared 35hp tractor easily in the highest gear (High range, 4rd gear). Show me an hydro doing the same.

Hydrostatic transmissions in medium or high definitely lack the ability to put power to the ground compared to a geared tractor. In low range they are more comparable, depending on tire type. Hydrostats also lack good consistent speed control on hills compared to a geared tractor. If doing heavy ground engaging work then a hydrostat struggles with transmission heat dissipation and can cook itself.

However the learning curve on hst tractors is much shorter than it is on a geared tractor. I have seen this time and time again. Two hours on a hst and the operator is efficient enough to be productive. A geared tractor is probably closer to 12 hours.

It is easier to do detailed tight work with a hst, the ability to creep up to something then speed away is much easier. However a good geared tractor operator can do it with similar accuracy, but it takes much more skill.

So selling, advising and working on tractors for over a dozen years, there are many instances of me steering a person toward a hydro. One of the biggest reasons being multiple operators and physical disabilities.

When the average compact tractor is used 27 hours a year it is hard to gain expertise. Every time the operator gets on the tractor it is like new. They might feel like they are an experienced operator, but with only a few hundred hours under their belt they are not. This is why hst makes sense for most operators of compact tractors. I am not in tractor sales, but recommend to all my non farmer friends to try a geared vs hydrostat. Just take a scoop of gravel, back up, take a 3 point turn, drive in a circle then dump the gravel back in the pile. All of them have gone with hydrostats when buying their own tractors, not based on hearsay, but their experience. All of them are casual users.

However when we have worked on projects moving dirt a few hundred feet. I am at least 30% faster, some of this is experience, but it is mostly because geared tractors can climb hills with reduced speed loss, and I can upshift when going down hill. In flat level ground I would not out pace them as much.

Don't be sad about people choosing hydros - at least with tractors, they won't quit making gear drive tractors just because people like to buy hydros.

I respectfully disagree, some examples are the Kubota BX, John Deere 1000 and 2000 series are all hst and do not offer a geared version. In Japan were the tractors are used in production agriculture Kubota offers a geared version of the BX the B11?1. I suspect we will see less geared options going forward. Kubota has almost killed off the GST powershift transmissions in the USA.

Both geared and hst transmission have their advantages and disadvantages. I prefer geared tractors, my non farmer friends all prefer hydrostat, most my farmer friends prefer geared. At the end of the day we still can be friends and respect each others choices.

 

[diesel466]

The lack of of a live PTO ,on some the lower hp models, keeps people away from the gear drive models.

 

[DarkBlack]

If you think a gear tractor is putting down enough power difference in a 100hp or less tractor you tripping.

I don’t know about that assertion.
Hydro losses will most likely be the same % of power, irregardless of being over or under 100 hp

 

[LouNY]

Well heck, guess I'll throw in my2 cents here as well.
I have a very steep driveway, one of my routine chores is to put water cuts in to divert the rain water. Two of my tractors have the ssqa which works with tool for digging the water cuts.
The Branson 8050 is a power shuttle F/R with a 4speed 3 range transmission.
The little Kioti a CK 2620 has the 3 rang hydro.

The 8050 can do 90% of the water cuts in neutral (clutch in/ shuttle in reverse) when I reach the end of the water cut I use the breaks then reverse out and back, I often have the uphill tire just starting to roll over the edge of the bank. It is nice and easy.
With the CK2620 hydrostatic I have to apply forward power to dig the water cut, as the front tire starts to break over the bank releasing the forward pedal and going for the reverse pedal has enough lag and just a bit of free wheel to get your heart to jumping up in your throat at times. And the brake pedal is of almost no use being on the same side as the forward and reverse pedals..

Then the other transmission is the IH 574 with high low or reverse on one lever ans 4 speeds inline on the other
quick and easy to use.

Then the NH 8160, 18-speed Range Command transmission. Six gears (1-6) in three ranges (A-C) with left-hand shuttle lever. Push-button gear shifting on the move. To shift ranges, hold up or down gear shift button while pressing range shift button. Reverse is available in range B only.

Then when I go to the Farm my favorites are the IH Magnums with the 18 speed powershift.

 

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I don’t know about that assertion.
Hydro losses will most likely be the same % of power, irregardless of being over or under 100 hp

You aren’t gonna know the difference in a higher horse power tractor. It is not as evident.
It’s as if you lose 10% of $100, you’ll have 90 bucks left. You lose 10% of a thousand bucks, $900 is more powerful than $90.