Auto vs shift

[4570Man]

How many small say 45 hp and below tractors sold in America have hydraulic shuttle transmissions available? The vast majority of small tractors with geared transmissions are dry clutch transmissions and those are horrible to run compared to a HST machine. The hydraulic shuttle transmissions has lost the cost advantage and the simplicity advantage over the basic gear trans and let’s be honest cost is the only reason anyone is buying the basic gear transmissions. I realize that other countries are but Americans are not out working the fields with small tractors. The power loss of a HST transmission isn’t a big deal when you aren’t trying to plow a field with it all day. The power loss of a HST transmission is much less significant if you’re pulling a bushhog across grass or doing regular tractor chores.

 

[arrow]

However the learning curve on hst tractors is much shorter than it is on a geared tractor. I have seen this time and time again.


When the average compact tractor is used 27 hours a year it is hard to gain expertise. Every time the operator gets on the tractor it is like new. They might feel like they are an experienced operator, but with only a few hundred hours under their belt they are not. This is why hst makes sense for most operators of compact tractors. I am not in tractor sales, but recommend to all my non farmer friends to try a geared vs hydrostat. Just take a scoop of gravel, back up, take a 3 point turn, drive in a circle then dump the gravel back in the pile. All of them have gone with hydrostats when buying their own tractors, not based on hearsay, but their experience. All of them are casual users.

Oh for heavens sakes.
Driving a tractor of any sort is not rocket science.
Yes it’s easier to drive a hydro,but ppl are buying these gutless 25 hp hydro tractors that are an abomination in power output just because it’s easier.
So what it’s a little easier and so what if the learning curve is a bit longer.
That’s what this entire society is moving toward:
Convenience of instant gratification is more important than investing for long term benefit.

 

[4570Man]

Oh for heavens sakes.
Driving a tractor of any sort is not rocket science.
Yes it’s easier to drive a hydro,but ppl are buying these gutless 25 hp hydro tractors that are an abomination in power output just because it’s easier.
So what it’s a little easier and so what if the learning curve is a bit longer.
That’s what this entire society is moving toward:
Convenience of instant gratification is more important than investing for long term benefit.

People are doing that because the government forced them into it. If the emissions regulations didn’t exist 25 hp tractors bigger than a garden tractor wouldn’t exist either.

 

[arrow]

How many small say 45 hp and below tractors sold in America have hydraulic shuttle transmissions available? The vast majority of small tractors with geared transmissions are dry clutch transmissions and those are horrible to run compared to a HST machine. The hydraulic shuttle transmissions has lost the cost advantage and the simplicity advantage over the basic gear trans and let’s be honest cost is the only reason anyone is buying the basic gear transmissions. I realize that other countries are but Americans are not out working the fields with small tractors. The power loss of a HST transmission isn’t a big deal when you aren’t trying to plow a field with it all day. The power loss of a HST transmission is much less significant if you’re pulling a bushhog across grass or doing regular tractor chores.

I am not sure where to start with your assertions as I disagree with most of them.
My experience in selling these demonstrates otherwise.
The majority of tractors sold today are hydro no matter what the cost increase quotient is.
No geared tractor I have ever driven would I call “horrible” to run. I have experienced the other way around however.
The real reason ppl are buying hydros is their fear of learning to drive anything else.

 

[4570Man]

I am not sure where to start with your assertions as I disagree with most of them.
My experience in selling these demonstrates otherwise.
The majority of tractors sold today are hydro no matter what the cost increase quotient is.
No geared tractor I have ever driven would I call “horrible” to run. I have experienced the other way around however.
The real reason ppl are buying hydros is their fear of learning to drive anything else.

The only reason people are buying tractors to start with is to make their lives easier. I’m not sure why you’re mad that they’re making it one step easier by taking clutching out of the operation.

 

[arrow]

People are doing that because the government forced them into it. If the emissions regulations didn’t exist 25 hp tractors bigger than a garden tractor wouldn’t exist either.

C.u.t.s started with less hp than that.
They sold and are successful because of their “compact” size.
I’d rather have a 14 hp tractor that weighs 4000 lbs than a 38 hp tractor that weighs 2500 for anything other than pto work.

 

[arrow]

The only reason people are buying tractors to start with is to make their lives easier. I’m not sure why you’re mad that they’re making it one step easier by taking clutching out of the operation.

Mad? I sell hydros to ppl.
I think I stated earlier as to what’s depressing about this.
Contrary to what this thread appears to be, it isn't about hydros vs geared operational efficacy.

 

[Jstpssng]

However the learning curve on hst tractors is much shorter than it is on a geared tractor. I have seen this time and time again. Two hours on a hst and the operator is efficient enough to be productive. A geared tractor is probably closer to 12 hours

That's a difference of two days.

Then again, most of us here likely have been running tractors for a bit longer than 12 hours.

 

[Sportsman762]

That's a difference of two days.

Then again, most of us here likely have been running tractors for a bit longer than 12 hours.

Thats what I thought too. However the hours a year thread suggest that could be 6 months of operation for many people.

Tractor Hours/Year

Ever wonder how many hours per year people put on their tractors? Ours are used mostly for small chores, snow, & landscaping - we don't do anymore mowing or field work. The newish Kubota's hour meter averages almost 100 hrs/year since 2008. The old one less than 50/year. It sure seems like more...

www.tractorbynet.com

How many hours do you have on your tractor

Recently I was in the market for a used tractor, I was looking at 1 tractor after another that had a few thousand hrs. on it and major engine work done. That was an exclusive selling point for these sellers, the fact that major engine work had recently been done. I assumed that a tractor's...

www.tractorbynet.com

Also we need to remember the folks on this forum are some of the "power users" of their compact tractor so the data on this forum is skewed towards those who put more hours on their machine than average. Some quick math; 27 hours a year is 2.25 hours a month, or .5 hours a week. You loose lots of knowledge in between operating hours.

 

[arrow]

Thats what I thought too. However the hours a year thread suggest that could be 6 months of operation for many people.

Tractor Hours/Year

Ever wonder how many hours per year people put on their tractors? Ours are used mostly for small chores, snow, & landscaping - we don't do anymore mowing or field work. The newish Kubota's hour meter averages almost 100 hrs/year since 2008. The old one less than 50/year. It sure seems like more...

www.tractorbynet.com

How many hours do you have on your tractor

Recently I was in the market for a used tractor, I was looking at 1 tractor after another that had a few thousand hrs. on it and major engine work done. That was an exclusive selling point for these sellers, the fact that major engine work had recently been done. I assumed that a tractor's...

www.tractorbynet.com

Also we need to remember the folks on this forum are some of the "power users" of their compact tractor so the data on this forum is skewed towards those who put more hours on their machine than average. Some quick math; 27 hours a year is 2.25 hours a month, or .5 hours a week. You loose lots of knowledge in between operating hours.

There just isn’t a large knowledge vessel of operating a tractor to lose. One may lose finesse after a while of non use but that’s not about forgetting as opposed to hand eye coordination.

 

[DarkBlack]

On many new cars the automatic is faster and might even get better mpg. The fancy dual clutch ones even give you the rev matched downshifts.

Car automatic transmissions are faster and better mpg because they are a computer automated gear transmission.
A hydrostatic transmission is totally different, and has constant additional energy losses, to achieve speed variability, without shifting

 

[Fixastuff]

Car automatic transmissions are faster and better mpg because they are a computer automated gear transmission.
A hydrostatic transmission is totally different, and has constant additional energy losses, to achieve speed variability, without shifting

He was talking about Subarus so that’s what I was responding to.

 

[arrow]

He was talking about Subarus so that’s what I was responding to.

I had a 2014 FORESTER.
I had 5 engines replaced in that car because of an oiling problem. Eventually cost me time, inconvenience and$5500 as they said l was above their replacement threshold.
Subaru was willing to give me$1000 toward my next forester plus give me $5000 for my multi engine Subaru.
This at the height of COVID where the dealer was wacking his cars $6000 above list claiming reduced availability.
So basically, they had my car for free plus l needed to give them an additional $5000 for the privilege of owning another of their Stella automobiles.
You know what I said.

 

[Fixastuff]

I had a 2014 FORESTER.
I had 5 engines replaced in that car because of an oiling problem. Eventually cost me time, inconvenience and$5500 as they said l was above their replacement threshold.
Subaru was willing to give me$1000 toward my next forester plus give me $5000 for my multi engine Subaru.
This at the height of COVID where the dealer was wacking his cars $6000 above list claiming reduced availability.
So basically, they had my car for free plus l needed to give them an additional $5000 for the privilege of owning another of their Stella automobiles.
You know what I said.

“Thank you kind sir, I’ll take two”? lol. I might have sold after the second engine, definitely would have sold after the 3rd or 4th one.

 

[arrow]

“Thank you kind sir, I’ll take two”? lol. I might have sold after the second engine, definitely would have sold after the 3rd or 4th one.

I shoulda just kept the first engine from the factory. So what if it used a quart every 3000 miles.
Come to find out, the replacement block had the same problem, then they just started using junk yard engines unbeknownst to me until the last engine.
The car did get 33 mpg. I think they made the new ones bigger and heavier and they now get 29 mpg.

 

[jyoutz]

To me, it's not a slim reason. And this is coming from a person who loves driving manual transmission cars - there are MANY operations I do around my place where hydro is better, for example, loader work and rear blade work (where is is nice to have one hand on the wheel and the other available to operate the loader valve or the rockshaft lever).

Running a stump grinder - again, you need to have basically instant forward/backward control and need one hand on the wheel and one on the rockshaft lever.

Many times mowing requires being able to ease right up to an obstruction which is very easy with the hydro. Maneuvering in tight spaces, especially where you might need to use the brake while also edging ahead with the hydro pedal, such as trying to precisely move something with pallet forks.

If I was using a tractor for something like farming or mowing many acres at a time, or maybe just with the tractor sitting still using a chipper, splitter or some such thing, yes, I might choose a gear tractor. Is a shuttle shift better than a gear tractor for frequent direction changes? Absolutely, but still not as convenient as a hydro in my opinion, especially if you need both hands free for other stuff.

Don't be sad about people choosing hydros - at least with tractors, they won't quit making gear drive tractors just because people like to buy hydros. Wish I could say the same about manual shift cars/trucks.

I agree totally with you for the same reasons. And I proficiently operated a geared tractor for all those uses for 22 years. I love my current hydro much more.

 

[jyoutz]

“Thank you kind sir, I’ll take two”? lol. I might have sold after the second engine, definitely would have sold after the 3rd or 4th one.

Subaru had that oiling problem up to and including the 2014 model year. The engines were re-engineered in 2015 and that problem no longer persists. Sucks for those who own the problematic years.

 

[jyoutz]

I can pull a loaded trailer on the road with my geared 35hp tractor easily in the highest gear (High range, 4rd gear). Show me an hydro doing the same and tell me whether there is or there isn't any difference in putting power down.

Heck, those hydro tractors can barely pull their own weight in high range and you're trying to convince people that there isn't any difference in putting power down? Surely, even you can't believe that.

It depends on the overall size/weight/hp of the hydro tractor. My 60hp hydro tractor has no power problems doing whatever I need to do.

 

[drizler]

What works for me is entering the dig if I might encounter shale ect is Mid 1. Then I have to hit neutral to clutch it to shift ranges to Hi. It sounds easy but gets to be a PITA.
If I stayed in mid range and used 1-2 to scoop and 4 to travel the travel speed is so slow I’d fall asleep going to the dump spot. It seems that as I say “ I’m seemingly between ranges” , too slow or too fast.

 

[arrow]

What works for me is entering the dig if I might encounter shale ect is Mid 1. Then I have to hit neutral to clutch it to shift ranges to Hi. It sounds easy but gets to be a PITA.
If I stayed in mid range and used 1-2 to scoop and 4 to travel the travel speed is so slow I’d fall asleep going to the dump spot. It seems that as I say “ I’m seemingly between ranges” , too slow or too fast.

So you’re having to hit neutral on a clutch shift initially?
So, Im in low 2nd to walk into the pile. All my bucket curling to fill the bucket is done in low 2.
I back out with the shuttle, press the clutch in again and shift directly to high to change ranges for transport.
I actually had to stop and think how I did this as it’s just become rote.
Even with a hydro, you’re still pressing a clutch to change ranges for transport.
What’s your tractor?