backhoe, trencher, renting, buying...

[mjncad]

Nice new toy...err...tool you bought Freds. I'd wait for the soil to dry out before trenching regardless of machine type.

I taught myself how to run a mini excavator and I could trench a straight line no problem; but I never did figure out how to get a consistent depth and flat bottom with it. You will probably have the same learning curve with the hoe as I did with the excavator concerning the trench bottom.

 

[Redneck in training]

Well just to update, I bought a backhoe today.
It'll be nice always having one always available without having the constrictions of renting. At least that's what I keep telling myself

Very nice toy. Don't worry it will pay for itself. Digging in dirt beats drinking in a bar.

 

[Freds]

Thanks mj and Redneck. I was playing around with it as little today and was much more aware of what I was doing than yesterday.

So, question;

I'm going to dig a trench. How do I check the depth of the trench as I go?
From what I've read, I can pound a couple T posts and level a string where I want the trench to be, then measure down from the string, but the string would be in the way when digging. It isn't making much sense to me to dig by sight alone, then go back and set your string up, then try to dig out the high spots to level your trench.

How do you hoe using trench diggers go about this?

Thanks

 

[philbuilt]

Freds,
Nice addition to the implement family. Trenching isn't all that hard. You did state that the grade is running down in the right direction. (i Think) Start your trench at the end and work to the wet spot. Use the hoe bucket as a gauge. Put the spoils only on one side and use the grade and bucket as the depth gauge. On my hoe if the bucket is sitting flat with teeth parallel with grade the top of the bucket is 16".
Another tip when trenching is have someone else sit and move the tractor forward. Its a time saver.
Phil

 

[GE222]

Assuming that you can find a trencher that is sized for the 4" width drain tile, I would go that route.

The trenched depth will be far more consistant. Also, back filling a smaller amount of finely ground dirt, is much easier than the larger amount of what you will have from an excavator.

What is the ground like? Rocks can really make trenching a challenge.

Are you putting any gravel or similar in with the tile?

 

[Freds]

Thanks Phil and GE.
I can practice trench where I am merely running some downspouts underground and into a creek. That has a pretty noticeable grade, so shouldn't be too bad. Depending on how I do there is whether or not I trench for the drainage in my yard... It sure would seem silly renting a trencher when I have a backhoe, but I sure don't need a 16" trench for drain tile either. Not to mention filling it back in and wanting to put gravel around the tile. I was even kicking around making a wood jig that would slide over the tile and let me backfill the trench up to it on either side, then I could dump the gravel into it. I could then pull it out with my loader, but that sure is a lot of farting around. Come to think of it, I would need two, so one is always in place while I butt the other one up to it. Yeah, too much farting around. I'd be better off getting 20 more tons of gravel.

Thanks for the tip on using the bucket as a gauge, Phil. That's about how deep I want to be anyway for this project.
I just finished "hoeing around" for about 3 hours and still have a hard time judging when the bucket is flat though. There's just not much "flat" to it, not with the shape it is. And once you start pulling it into the dirt, you can't see the teeth anymore... At least there's a float position on the BH for the boom. That's supposed to help you trench once you get started.

 

[Wis Bang]

Dad used to do the most w/ the dipper & boom after establishing the depth he would make the 'toe' of the bucket paralell to the ground and sit it in the trench & working the boom and dipper pull it to him a little, maybe half a foot or so, then curl the bucket up , lift and dump, and repeat.

It's hard to explain but practice should help. So would watching a pro if you can. After the firrst hunded feet of trench it shoudl get easier.

He only pointed the bucket teeth down when starting the trench & would curl the bucket while pulling it in w/ the dipper repeating this in the same spot until he had established the depth & from then on the bucket would be somewhat flat w/ the teeth pointing at him as he lowered it into the trench.

Watching him work you could see that after dumping he would curl the bucket while swinging back to the trench w/ the teeth lower than paralell so it was level when it reached the bottom.

I've watched amatures and they try and drop the bucket w/ the teeth pointing down and try to dig by curling the bucket. That works to gain depth when diiging a deep trench but a level trench is more finesse than just hoging out dirt...

Find a place to 'play' w/ the hoe & put the bucket flat on the ground and work w/ the dipper & boom controls until you can walk the bucket across the ground with out getting much dirt inside. Try pulling the second control back and releasing the first and work 'em back & forth till you can pull the bucket to you a foot or so with out thinking about it.

I watched an operator start a job w/ a big CAT excavator. the engineer told him that the water & sewer main were 'here & here' paralell to each other and how far down each were. He was able to find them by feel. When he stopped & pointed, a laborer jumped down w/ a shovel & uncovered the water main, then he dug alongside a few more buckets full and pointed again there was the sewer. That's why he was paid the big bucks...

 

[Freds]

"Find a place to 'play' w/ the hoe & put the bucket flat on the ground and work w/ the dipper & boom controls until you can walk the bucket across the ground with out getting much dirt inside. Try pulling the second control back and releasing the first and work 'em back & forth till you can pull the bucket to you a foot or so with out thinking about it."

That, Wis Bang, is excellent advice. It never occurred to me to practice walking it across the ground's surface.

Good job! Thanks

 

[sandman2234]

One of my first experiences with a backhoe showed me that I really needed to practice, and do every chance I get. One of my neighbors saw the hoe in my yard, dropped by and offered to give me a bit of a hand, as I was rapidly running out of daylight. He did in 15 minutes what I had taken half a day to do. He was at home on the hoe, as he operated one every day for a local utility company. Practice will help, and soon you won't even ask questions about operating it, lol!
David from jax

 

[Wis Bang]

"Find a place to 'play' w/ the hoe & put the bucket flat on the ground and work w/ the dipper & boom controls until you can walk the bucket across the ground with out getting much dirt inside. Try pulling the second control back and releasing the first and work 'em back & forth till you can pull the bucket to you a foot or so with out thinking about it."

That, Wis Bang, is excellent advice. It never occurred to me to practice walking it across the ground's surface.

Good job! Thanks

It's the only way to learn! Developing the skill to make the bucket work when you can't see it means having the skill to watch the bucket/dipper/boom and not the controls. Dad worked the controls much the same way a musician plays an instrument.

It was much harder to describe in wrighting though I can picture him working a hoe in my head.

That's what always impressed me about him. He worked for the city where I grew up. He would be plowing snow w/ a grader only to jump out and climb onto a hoe to go dig up a water main that's turning a few blocks into an ice rink. He had the ability to get into a different machine and knew what to do.

He won a prize, a new crane dealership was having an open house. As part of the shop tour the owner started describing this 'antique' that they had inside the shop rigged up w/ a clam. He was describing how it took them months to learn how to run this old monster & that there was a cash reward for anyone who could. Well he learned to operate cranes on a similar model & was able to start it, hoist the clam swing it arount 360 & pick up an implement on the floor and then set it back down to the amazement of the workers. Hadn't run one of them in over 40 years!

 

[jaybrad]

Watching someone who knows their stuff and has lot of experience is a thing of beauty.

I got our tractor w/ BH last summer and spent a lot of time "practicing", although at the time I thought I would be "working." I am looking forward to another summer of "practice" once the yard dries out.

Last fall there was some construction going on near our office, and I spent a lot of time just watching the guy do the excavator work. It was an amazing site. Each action was smooth and efficient, and when he was done, it looked like the area had been leveled by hand.

Humbling, and inspiring.

 

[Wis Bang]

Those big excavators, at least the CATS have a valve to reduce the hydraulic pressure to slow things down. That was the first thing the 'old hands' would check and turn up to the max since us shop guys & trailer jockeys would use it when we serviced and loaded up to bring them out to the job.

The only time a good operator is jerkey will be on a machine he's not familiar with, or one he hates to run...

 

[Brad_Blazer]

This guy seems to have some good advice:
YouTube - How to Operate a Backhoe : How to Operate the Back Boom on a Backhoe

 

[Freds]

Interesting. he takes long, shallow cuts out until he gets down to grade, then he's already got a trench the length of his hoe's reach dug. This will give me another method to practice. I was going to dig a hole down to my grade, then use my boom's float with the bucket in the flat position and bring the dipper stick back towards me, letting the bucket fill up in a shorter distance, but hopefully maintaining the desired grade. His method leaves you more trench to eyeball to see how your grade is going. Then you can adjust it on the next pass. I'll have to see which method works the best for me in the least amount of time.

Thanks for the vid.

 

[Wis Bang]

Same idea, he still uses the boom and dipper while the bucket cutting edge stays at the same relative angle as he pulls it along the trench...

 

[BXpanded]

The key to operating a backhoe properly is entirely in the boom control. TLBs have only one hyd pump. If 2 or more valves are open at the same time, the fluid goes to the cylinder with the least resistance. Example, try this: Raise the boom, extend the dipper and swing the hoe all the way to one side. Start the swing back toward the other side. Without letting off the swing, push the lever to lower the boom. The swing will stop as the boom falls. Stop dropping the boom and the swing will resume. Feather the boom down and the swing will move slowly as the boom drops slowly. This by the way, is how an experienced operator can always hit the ditch smoothly and quickly as he swings back from dumping the bucket.

Cutting grade takes some practice. Extend the dipper, drop the bucket to the ground. Pull the dipper in full speed. (The bucket will immediately head for China and the back of the machine toward the sky) Now, at the same time, lift the boom slightly. The rising boom allows the bucket to slide along the ground with little penetration and no lift of the machine. The depth of the cut is controlled by how hard the boom resists the lifting action as the dipper is pulled back toward the machine. If the boom is not allowed to rise, the back of the machine will be lifted. If the boom is raised too much, no digging happens. Finding that point where the bucket comes back to the machine horizontally is the key. It changes as the dipper moves so there is no set point. Like I said, takes practice.

As the dipper is pulling in and the boom is rising, the bucket can be curled or uncurled as necessary to keep the teeth in a cutting position. This requires feathering of 3 valves simultaneously. (Kind'a like juggling a trio of squirrells but with practice it gets easy.) The bucket position is not as critical as it might seem. The old cable operated machines had rigid, fixed, buckets, no curl at all, yet dug very well.

The BH operates much like your arm and hand. Simulate an even horizontal cut with your arm and you can see the various actions required by the machine. As someone mentioned in an earlier post, after enough practice you can actually feel things with the machine. The "feel" is actually the result of the shifting and flexing of the machine components as the resistance to the bucket changes but is very real and can be far more sensitive than you would imagine.

When a cut is finished use the BH to move the machine forward. Put the bucket in the ditch, raise the outriggers just off the ground and raise the front bucket. Push the machine forward with the coordinated use of the extending dipper and the lowering boom. Set the outriggers, drop the FEL bucket and dig.

 

[Freds]

Thanks for the post, BX.
I was playing around on it yesterday for an hour. I couldn't get anything to happen with the scraping method. It needed more technique than what I have right now and I ended up pulling the machine along or raising the boom too much and not doing much of anything.
I went to the dig a hole and take it from there method. Much easier. I actually got an 8' trench in little time with a "fairly" level bottom. No idea on the levelness of my trench, but it looked good from the seat (lol). As I was calling it a day, I realized another thing I can do to make this work even better and will practice that today.
No luck pushing myself along though... I can pull myself, but pushing myself digs the bucket into the bottom of the trench and messes up my trench, putting a divot in it. I had the bucket in an uncurled position. Don't tell the OSHA police, but I'm thinking of a 2 x 4 on the treddle. I can bump myself along without stalling the tractor. Or maybe set a weight on the safety switch if that works, something I would have to remove to put the seat back down.

And yes, I noticed last weekend that increasing one movement decreases another when opening two or three valves. Typically the swing, because I have the swing movement dampered down with the control.

Good post, BX.

 

[BXpanded]

Thanks for the post, BX.
I was playing around on it yesterday for an hour. I couldn't get anything to happen with the scraping method. It needed more technique than what I have right now and I ended up pulling the machine along or raising the boom too much and not doing much of anything.
No luck pushing myself along though... I can pull myself, but pushing myself digs the bucket into the bottom of the trench and messes up my trench, putting a divot in it. I had the bucket in an uncurled position.

When you are digging, make sure the FEL bucket has all the weight from the front of the tractor. The leverage helps keep the rear of the tractor from lifting.

When pushing yourself along, push just far enough that you can reach back over the divot and smooth it as you make the next cut. The small BHs have a limited reach so you may not be able to move very far at a time. As you push yourself along, keep in mind you can steer the front of the tractor by the direction of the front wheels.

Another little tip: To dig a straight ditch, mark the line with paint, lime, cement, whatever. Keep the BH swing pivot directly over the line and keep the machine level side-to-side with the outriggers. If you get off the line, use the bucket to lift the rear and set it over to the line. (The FEL bucket needs to be raised slightly to lift the rear.) Level front to rear doesn't matter.

Practice, Practice, Practice! You'll figure most of it out in the first 10,000 hours or so!

 

[Airic]

I just skimmed through so it may already have been mentioned. I have a float control on my upper boom (Left lever all the way foward). Took me 3 months till I realized I had it. This helps greatly in maintaining a flat surface at the bottom of the trench as it does not apply down pressure. As long as you keep the cutting edge of the bucket parallel with the trench is works very well. What others have said is great advise. I paint a line for the trench path and keep it centered with the tractor. For depth, I place a string line next to the trench with the slope I want and line the string up with a piece of tape placed on the foward boom on the backhoe. In little time you will be able to pick pockets with that thing.

 

[Freds]

Airic, doesn't the tractor interfere with the string? I asked that earlier. Or maybe is the string just a couple inches off the ground?

And the float was already mentioned..... I mentioned it (lol). Yes, it works great. That seems to be the easiest way to trench for me right now. I practiced a little more with it this afternoon and feel I'm ready to at least run my downspouts underground and bury the drain pipes so they run into a creek directly rather than water flowing on top of the ground. This area has a pretty good slope to it and I can eyeball my trench depth and it will still be running downhill. If I use the BH on the other area though, where the drain tile is going, I need a better way to judge depth than just looking at the top of my bucket sitting in the trench. I'd really like to know how you use that string.