Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Oaktree]

Plus Model E sounds much like Model 3 that is eating margins at the old line car makers. I think Ford and others may be having a knee jerk reaction after being asleep behind the wheel for 10 years while Nissan and Tesla were actually in the EV space and selling them to the public worldwide. The recent story how MB sales were down $22 million in Norway because the EV's in that country made up 40%+ of new car sales.

I think it was world wide but I read Telsa was reporting 22% of trade-ins where BMW or MB higher end cars.

Your last statement tells me that EVs=rich man's toy/status symbol.
I've never been to Norway, but I'm a more than a bit skeptical about EVs accounting for almost half of new car sales unless the government is making it extremely difficult to buy a conventional vehicle or there are other economic factors that don't apply here in the U.S.

I would always have two vehicles so a basic cheap EV would work for me. For most users, adding $10-15k to get a 400 mile range and 30 minute charge will be difficult to justify. On the handful of long trips most of us make, stopping at a gas station and filling up in 5 minutes is the preferred option. Use the ICE for that, and EV for daily running around.

Seems kind of an expensive solution for most people, having a 2nd vehicle just for trips. ISTM that most who have a "standby" vehicle it would be something like a truck that gets used only when they need a truck.

 

[Agvg]

Of course EV has a lot of benefits over ICE in Norway. No sales tax, free parking, free ferries, no road toll and could use bus file on the high way. Some of those benefits are now gone.

All this came long befor Tesla and Nissan.

Adding a picture of a typically EV from the years when all those benefits was introduced. You needed some advantages before you did get out on the highway in a Kewet Buddy....

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I would not factor in the impact on the environment in my purchase decision. If there is a difference, I doubt it will amount to much...but I expect electric will be better.

Reliability, cost of repairs, cost of operation, servicing, and operating range are my drivers. I need heat in the winter and A/C in the summer. 100 miles a day with an overnight charge will suffice for 90% of my needs. I would always have two vehicles so a basic cheap EV would work for me. For most users, adding $10-15k to get a 400 mile range and 30 minute charge will be difficult to justify. On the handful of long trips most of us make, stopping at a gas station and filling up in 5 minutes is the preferred option. Use the ICE for that, and EV for daily running around.

shooterdon I expect many are in or will be in agreement on basic cheap EV solutions in the years to come. They are out there for other markets already. US safety features may drive up the cost but I expect in a few years we will see some new <$15K USD options. At this point I do not see myself developing an interest in the $50K-$100K EV solution. We have enough ICE's around the place to cover longer trips but the number may drop to 2 as the kids will be gone in time. Our 2010 F-150 and Subaru Forester (both 4 doors and 4WD) may last a long time if doing most of the daily runs in the 2016 Leaf. In case of accidents or hard failure we still have good driving options since we are in a rural area. Both of them have been parked for the last two weeks so no gas station visits. EV's do cost money and today just do not make sense for many cases like the person that only makes three 5 mile trips several times a week and own a low mileage quality car or truck. We are doing a min of 500 miles a week (30 to 60 miles round trips) so my geek streak told me we needed an EV NOW to play with.

 

[shooterdon]

Gale,

I agree with you. I was looking at either an EV or used pickup for a couple of months to supplement our like new 2015 F150. Found a good deal on a high mileage 2016 F150 and bought it last week.

On the few long trips we make a year an ICE makes the most sense for us. But most days we put on 10 miles, and once or twice a week 50 miles per day...perfect for a low end EV. With no EV dealers 1 1/2 hour away, it became a deal killer. One downside to living in a very rural area. Another factor was the desire for AWD or 4WD for times of the year roads are bad.

EV's are not for everyone but I believe they will capture a sizeable share of the market. Battery technology will continue to develop and then the last bit is charging stations. For many people, an overnight charge at home will be all they need most of the time anyway.

One of the factors affecting Europe that Americans do not realize is the cost of fuel there...about twice or greater in many countries than what we pay. If fuel goes to over $5/gal, that will incentivize people to EV's. And if they have good experiences with EV's, their friends and family will be more comfortable with them.

With two decent ICE vehicles and the low miles we drive, it may be 10 years before we are in the market again. In another 10 years, EV's will be even better and the mainstream dealers (Ford/GM/etc) will be geared up for them. It is highly likely our next vehicle will be an EV. I see very little not to like with an EV

 

[Jstpssng]

0-60 in under 3 seconds... 5 electric cars giving supercars a run for their money - Business Insider

I believe that EVs will become more widespread. This discussion reminds me of a WWII era series I read as a kid. Two brothers invented a battery and electric airplane which allowed it to rise like a helicopter, and go almost forever on the battery. Fiction, yes, and definitely optimistic... but possibly also ahead of it’s time.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Saw something that pointed out that the Government incentives for electric cars basically subsidize the rich. That's pretty much the only one able to afford them.

Saw another Documentary on an enourmous Indian Solar Farm. They kept talking about all this clean energy saying nothing of the tens of thousands of very "dirty" toxic solar panels.

It ended with talk about bringing "light" into so many poor Indian Households. Gosh, I hope they don't need that "light" at night! How typically STUPID!

 

[Agvg]

Leaf and the VW e-Golf and KIA and Hyundai EV are not for the rich, Tesla, Jag and Audi e-tron is, the same with BMW and MB.

Of course Tesla 3 is not particularly expensive in base version.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Tell that to people that drive twelve year old beaters.

 

[Agvg]

If all you can afford is a old wreck, then all new cars are expensive.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Yes, true, but it would be kind of just another slap in the face for the poor guy to hear that rich folks are getting government "green" vehicle subsidies.

 

[Agvg]

Yes, the sosial profile on lot of the new green politics are not the best, using tax on purchase of fuel, electric power etc has a big impact on those that has low income, but so far nobody seems to care as long as they have moved in to the well payed middle-class.

 

[Industrial Toys]

On the other side of the coin. Canadian Government gives so much to the Welfare society and new immigrants, that giving them new electric vehicles wouldn't be a stretch at all.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Saw something that pointed out that the Government incentives for electric cars basically subsidize the rich. That's pretty much the only one able to afford them.

Saw another Documentary on an enourmous Indian Solar Farm. They kept talking about all this clean energy saying nothing of the tens of thousands of very "dirty" toxic solar panels.

It ended with talk about bringing "light" into so many poor Indian Households. Gosh, I hope they don't need that "light" at night! How typically STUPID!

It is true the wealthy people are the early drivers of technology adoption. In 1970 I saw my first 4 function calculator that a doctor had purchased for $100 when some new cars were selling for under $2000. Now the 4 function calculators are basically free and entry level new cars are a bit more than$1500 to $2000.

In fact it is the rich that provides for many of the jobs in the USA. As Agvg mentioned that are EV's geared for the working man or woman. Our new to us 2016 Nissan Leaf SL with the 4 exterior camera option is the nicest quality of car with the most comfort features that we have ever own. With 2 remaining years of power train coverage and 5 more years for the battery and with only 21K miles for <$15K is an option for the many people that do not drive more than 30-60 mile round trips a day.

In looking at what is in the pipeline at Nissan EV wise I really do not see a compelling reason today that would lead me to buy a Tesla down the road. At the age of 68 and all crippled up with arthritis the last 40 years I am just looking for service today and self driving implementation down the road. Lane keeping and automatic braking would be nice soon however. Plus how many Nissan cars do you hear about getting "keyed"?

My Leaf is the first electric car around here that many have ever seen. I did not even know Nissan was an advanced leader in EV's world wide until a few months ago. I hear people saying things like "I can see an EV purchase down the road." Seeing EV charging stations popping up is helping people grasp the EV's are here and here to stay.

With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land. This is actually a paradigm shift that I did not see coming to fly over country in the USA. Having two 22 year old kids that some day may have kids of their own can help some of us to think beyond the few remaining years we have to live.

In the 60's people started buying cars with AC then it seemed like over night most all homes got AC window units then came central heat and air. Where will the EV revolution take us next I wonder?

 

[Fuddy1952]

It is true the wealthy people are the early drivers of technology adoption. In 1970 I saw my first 4 function calculator that a doctor had purchased for $100 when some new cars were selling for under $2000. Now the 4 function calculators are basically free and entry level new cars are a bit more than$1500 to $2000.

In fact it is the rich that provides for many of the jobs in the USA. As Agvg mentioned that are EV's geared for the working man or woman. Our new to us 2016 Nissan Leaf SL with the 4 exterior camera option is the nicest quality of car with the most comfort features that we have ever own. With 2 remaining years of power train coverage and 5 more years for the battery and with only 21K miles for <$15K is an option for the many people that do not drive more than 30-60 mile round trips a day.

In looking at what is in the pipeline at Nissan EV wise I really do not see a compelling reason today that would lead me to buy a Tesla down the road. At the age of 68 and all crippled up with arthritis the last 40 years I am just looking for service today and self driving implementation down the road. Lane keeping and automatic braking would be nice soon however. Plus how many Nissan cars do you hear about getting "keyed"?

My Leaf is the first electric car around here that many have ever seen. I did not even know Nissan was an advanced leader in EV's world wide until a few months ago. I hear people saying things like "I can see an EV purchase down the road." Seeing EV charging stations popping up is helping people grasp the EV's are here and here to stay.

With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land. This is actually a paradigm shift that I did not see coming to fly over country in the USA. Having two 22 year old kids that some day may have kids of their own can help some of us to think beyond the few remaining years we have to live.

In the 60's people started buying cars with AC then it seemed like over night most all homes got AC window units then came central heat and air. Where will the EV revolution take us next I wonder?

I liked some things you said except "With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land."

The misconception is the ev is this clean, great for the environment solution...except you have to factor in all the pollution created in it's manufacturer, the pollution created charging it (power comes from it's source), pollution created by batteries (they were manufactured, then replaced/"recycled").
They're still unappealing to many because gas stations are everywhere, it takes 5 minutes to fill up. Charging stations are not as prevalent and time consuming.

By the way...what is/where is "red neck land?" I have tractors, a truck, farm, animals. I guess I'm a redneck.

 

[Agvg]

Most EV here I Norway are in urban and semi urban areas, out in the country many chooses chargeable hybrids, if you have 30 to 40km range, you can drive a lot on electric. If you live very rural the point of EV and hybrids are not important, a ICE today are quit clean and on the mountain or the woods it is no local pollution problem.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I liked some things you said except "With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land."

The misconception is the ev is this clean, great for the environment solution...except you have to factor in all the pollution created in it's manufacturer, the pollution created charging it (power comes from it's source), pollution created by batteries (they were manufactured, then replaced/"recycled").
They're still unappealing to many because gas stations are everywhere, it takes 5 minutes to fill up. Charging stations are not as prevalent and time consuming.

By the way...what is/where is "red neck land?" I have tractors, a truck, farm, animals. I guess I'm a redneck.

Fuddy1952 you make a good point and ask a good question. Red Neck is a subjective term and should never be used in a public forum. In our music we use the term in different ways. She Thanks My Tractor Is Sexy is one example and booklets like You Might Be a Red Neck if .... are some examples that come to mind.

Gas is not going away just like the horse and buggy I was following down the street in Murray KY yesterday is not going away soon. Electric vehicles will be most common I expect some day only if they make the most $$$ sense. The health issues of gas and diesel are driving the move to EV's in places like some cities in CA and China. In the USA fleet operators are using electrical trucks to improve their average emissions like the EPA and other standards setting agencies goals on pollution etc.

 

[Egon]

Tell that to people that drive twelve year old beaters.

Twelve years old?? That痴 just about like new to me.

 

[/pine]

It is true the wealthy people are the early drivers of technology adoption. In 1970 I saw my first 4 function calculator that a doctor had purchased for $100 when some new cars were selling for under $2000. Now the 4 function calculators are basically free and entry level new cars are a bit more than$1500 to $2000.

In fact it is the rich that provides for many of the jobs in the USA. As Agvg mentioned that are EV's geared for the working man or woman. Our new to us 2016 Nissan Leaf SL with the 4 exterior camera option is the nicest quality of car with the most comfort features that we have ever own. With 2 remaining years of power train coverage and 5 more years for the battery and with only 21K miles for <$15K is an option for the many people that do not drive more than 30-60 mile round trips a day.

In looking at what is in the pipeline at Nissan EV wise I really do not see a compelling reason today that would lead me to buy a Tesla down the road. At the age of 68 and all crippled up with arthritis the last 40 years I am just looking for service today and self driving implementation down the road. Lane keeping and automatic braking would be nice soon however. Plus how many Nissan cars do you hear about getting "keyed"?

My Leaf is the first electric car around here that many have ever seen. I did not even know Nissan was an advanced leader in EV's world wide until a few months ago. I hear people saying things like "I can see an EV purchase down the road." Seeing EV charging stations popping up is helping people grasp the EV's are here and here to stay.

With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land. This is actually a paradigm shift that I did not see coming to fly over country in the USA. Having two 22 year old kids that some day may have kids of their own can help some of us to think beyond the few remaining years we have to live.

In the 60's people started buying cars with AC then it seemed like over night most all homes got AC window units then came central heat and air. Where will the EV revolution take us next I wonder?

What you don't seem to realize is the advancement of technology in the last 80 years or so started with military research...it is hard to find a piece of modern electronic technology that cannot be directly related to the space program of the 60's...
...It is endeavors that advance technology...not opportunities...

 

[aczlan]

Twelve years old?? That痴 just about like new to me.

Same here, my daily driver is a 2008 with over 200k miles, my wife drives a 2005 with 177k miles. Both are going strong.

Aaron Z

 

[Snobdds]

It is true the wealthy people are the early drivers of technology adoption. In 1970 I saw my first 4 function calculator that a doctor had purchased for $100 when some new cars were selling for under $2000. Now the 4 function calculators are basically free and entry level new cars are a bit more than$1500 to $2000.

In fact it is the rich that provides for many of the jobs in the USA. As Agvg mentioned that are EV's geared for the working man or woman. Our new to us 2016 Nissan Leaf SL with the 4 exterior camera option is the nicest quality of car with the most comfort features that we have ever own. With 2 remaining years of power train coverage and 5 more years for the battery and with only 21K miles for <$15K is an option for the many people that do not drive more than 30-60 mile round trips a day.

In looking at what is in the pipeline at Nissan EV wise I really do not see a compelling reason today that would lead me to buy a Tesla down the road. At the age of 68 and all crippled up with arthritis the last 40 years I am just looking for service today and self driving implementation down the road. Lane keeping and automatic braking would be nice soon however. Plus how many Nissan cars do you hear about getting "keyed"?

My Leaf is the first electric car around here that many have ever seen. I did not even know Nissan was an advanced leader in EV's world wide until a few months ago. I hear people saying things like "I can see an EV purchase down the road." Seeing EV charging stations popping up is helping people grasp the EV's are here and here to stay.

With 80% of our money spent on gas just going to dump bad stuff into the air is starting to click in red neck land. This is actually a paradigm shift that I did not see coming to fly over country in the USA. Having two 22 year old kids that some day may have kids of their own can help some of us to think beyond the few remaining years we have to live.

In the 60's people started buying cars with AC then it seemed like over night most all homes got AC window units then came central heat and air. Where will the EV revolution take us next I wonder?

This sounds a bit, "I'm better than you" type of thinking. It is very prevalent in EV ownership it seems.

Yet, to date, EV are probably bigger polluters than regular IC engines when factoring in all the energy and process to make the EV go.

Again, all EV do is move the pollution around, they actually don't decrease the pollution.