Battery based electric vehicles of today and tomorrow.

[Gale Hawkins]

Ahh This is a TRACTOR forum. I don't know who those people are that need or want an ev. I certainly can not speak for them.

jus' say'in

We're tractor owners into rural living for the most part I expect or least that is our case.

 

[Grumpycat]

As more residential solar becomes a reality, the utilities will be happy to find a market for their surplus capacity (likely off peak at that).

Ain't gonna happen for at least 6 more years. The golden entitlement years of Net Metering is coming to an end. Utilities should not have to buy your PV power for the same price they resell, they have to pay their employees and interest on the capital used to run wires. New installations in TVA's coverage could get a 20 year contract to buy PV power from system up to 10 kW capacity at $0.090/kWh through the end of the year. After that the rate is $0.015/kWh which is TVA's audited incremental cost of generation. It costs TVA 1.5｢ to generate one more kWh so why should they pay you 9｢? Answer: Because The Government Created An Entitlement Program.

On a different topic, I always wondered why EVs didn't have a small, super efficient, constant speed, diesel generator on board to extend range, emergency back up etc.

There were two models of automobile that do essentially what you describe. The Chevrolet Volt is being discontinued. The BMW i3 REx is still for sale. The Volt had a mechanical link to the drive wheels but engine could run as a pure genset. The BMW i3 "range extender" is a pure genset as you describe. A little car that gets just over 30 MPG running on the engine. Its a terrible system that often can not move the car 70 MPH on engine only. And can not climb mountains if the battery is low.

 

[sd455dan]

That is an area where a Volt cleans the I3 range extenders clock,

does Very well when in mountain mode.

A reporter printed an article on the Volt saying he was worried it would not be an OK car to cross mountains...

This Volt owner tested the theory on the Coquihalla

Chevy Volt Mountain Mode Explained - YouTube

Video was shot on a 1995 mile trip

2012 Volt burned 47 US gallons of gas and also returned an overall average of 42.4 MPG

 

[3930dave]

If you haven't driven it, that summit is a good test of any drive-train.

Coquihalla Summit - Wikipedia

Off topic (sorry...), but somewhere along that highway is a range of totally smooth rock that is a continuously curved downslope.

Driving by that ^, I was thinking "I wonder if some loon has taken a long-board up there ? "..... probably be going 80mph+ at the bottom !

Rgds, D.

 

[California]

The economics of driving seven Teslas for 2.5 million miles — Quartz

An interesting article on operating cost in fleet use. One case is seven Teslas averaging 17,000 miles per month and over 300,000 miles, none showing a need to replace it. That fleet's average total operating cost including depreciation is declining as they add less expensive Model 3's to their fleet along with their original expensive S and X cars.


The article has a comparison of fleet maintenance costs driving in NYC. It copies the following chart from an article that makes clear this is costs aside from the gasoline used.

 

[Oldpath05]

So what does NYC need cars like those for, cant plow snow or do road maintenance with them..........

 

[California]

So what does NYC need cars like those for, cant plow snow or do road maintenance with them..........

Writing parking tickets!



A big city - 300 sq miles, population 8,000,000, has lots of employees out all day. Building permit inspectors, elevator inspectors, pothole complaint investigators/estimators, eldercare complaint investigators, garbage route supervisors, lots of stuff you wouldn't think of.

These fleet cars are just to haul someone's butt around. In severe congested traffic. Their fleet of work trucks like you are thinking of is different.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Apparently it's still one of the most corrupt Cities in The US. I guess they gotta get around to do their corruption somehow and do it as frugally as possible..

 

[Gale Hawkins]

The economics of driving seven Teslas for 2.5 million miles — Quartz

An interesting article on operating cost in fleet use. One case is seven Teslas averaging 17,000 miles per month and over 300,000 miles, none showing a need to replace it. That fleet's average total operating cost including depreciation is declining as they add less expensive Model 3's to their fleet along with their original expensive S and X cars.


The article has a comparison of fleet maintenance costs driving NYC. It copies the following chart from an article that makes clear this is costs aside from the gasoline used.

Thanks for the link. That story is awesome info as to why EV's are gaining ground on many new fronts.

 

[Oldpath05]

Writing parking tickets!



A big city - 300 sq miles, population 8,000,000, has lots of employees out all day. Building permit inspectors, elevator inspectors, pothole complaint investigators/estimators, eldercare complaint investigators, garbage route supervisors, lots of stuff you wouldn't think of.

These fleet cars are just to haul someone's butt around. In severe congested traffic. Their fleet of work trucks like you are thinking of is different.

:thumbsup: At least they dont spend 3 days lost a clover leaf............ 'Lord, Mr. Ford' (Jerry Reed) - YouTube

 

[3930dave]

In terms of MTCE, let's not forget....

Nissan Leaf buyers, dealers worry about replacing worn-out cells

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

In terms of MTCE, let's not forget....

Nissan Leaf buyers, dealers worry about replacing worn-out cells

Rgds, D.

Keep in mind a $5K 2011 Leaf after spending $5K on another battery will still only be worth maybe $5K but it will be easier to sell it. For $10K+ one could get a 5 year newer car with a good battery and remaining factory service. Old sub 100 mile range EV's are not in demand. Think of batteries as engine replacements in ICE vehicles. Sometimes a re-manufactured Jasper engine makes sense but often it does not make $$$$ sense. EV motors are long life and they have no transmission. There is no oil to change and only 10% of the moving parts of an ICE vehicle. In Leafs the 2015 and newer are a different class of vehicle than the earlier imported version. Leafs have been on the market the longest in the USA but I had to go 200 miles to touch my first Leaf which I bought the same day.

If you have never driven an EV then take one for a test drive. For local (50 mile trips) I plan to keep an EV going forward. It is an awesome experience I do not want to give up a month later.

I address fear of the unknown my making the unknown a "known" like in buying my first EV last month. Today I read posts based on fear about EV's just like local farmers bashed diesel tractors back in the 50's and 60's. EV's will replace ICE's like diesel replaced gas tractors over the years. Actually we just my gas tractor running last week. It is a Allis Chambers Model B from 1948. Ditched the old mechanical points and went with electronic for a huge improvement on a 71 year old tractor. If the engine goes down I may go with an electric motor out of something like a wrecked electric motorcycle. That would be cool at old tractor events.

 

[California]

:thumbsup: At least they dont spend 3 days lost a clover leaf............ 'Lord, Mr. Ford' (Jerry Reed) - YouTube

He must have gone to Los Angeles.

I spent many weeks flying down there to audit construction contractors' claimed costs for a Big Public Agency. Of course these contractor's yards and HQ office, are always in some obscure industrial tract.

This was before cellphones with maps. It was a real PIA to try to memorize a complex and unfamiliar route off a gas station map, then make all the proper turns in nasty murderously fast 8-lane traffic.

No way would I ever live in LA! Or NYC.

 

[3930dave]

Keep in mind a $5K 2011 Leaf after spending $5K on another battery will still only be worth maybe $5K but it will be easier to sell it. For $10K+ one could get a 5 year newer car with a good battery and remaining factory service. Old sub 100 mile range EV's are not in demand. Think of batteries as engine replacements in ICE vehicles. Sometimes a re-manufactured Jasper engine makes sense but often it does not make $$$$ sense. EV motors are long life and they have no transmission. There is no oil to change and only 10% of the moving parts of an ICE vehicle. In Leafs the 2015 and newer are a different class of vehicle than the earlier imported version. Leafs have been on the market the longest in the USA but I had to go 200 miles to touch my first Leaf which I bought the same day.

If you have never driven an EV then take one for a test drive. For local (50 mile trips) I plan to keep an EV going forward. It is an awesome experience I do not want to give up a month later.

I address fear of the unknown my making the unknown a "known" like in buying my first EV last month. Today I read posts based on fear about EV's just like local farmers bashed diesel tractors back in the 50's and 60's. EV's will replace ICE's like diesel replaced gas tractors over the years. Actually we just my gas tractor running last week. It is a Allis Chambers Model B from 1948. Ditched the old mechanical points and went with electronic for a huge improvement on a 71 year old tractor. If the engine goes down I may go with an electric motor out of something like a wrecked electric motorcycle. That would be cool at old tractor events.

To your original point..... it's a dynamic situation. PetroCanada is running TV ads here about their new installations across Canada.

EV Fast Charge car charging stations | Petro-Canada

Perception vs. Reality...... one of the things I find amusing is that their network is already much better represented in Alberta and Saskatchewan (oil provinces), than in BC (We are So Green !) :laughing:. But, I can see that.... reality on the ground (small pun) is often different, and AB and SK are much more Git 'er Done than BeSea.....

I think an EV like a Leaf is an excellent choice for the needs you describe - short local runs, not heavily loaded or towing. Driving distances.... another story.

For my needs, a hybrid is more useful as a general purpose personal vehicle.... last Friday was an 1000km+ day, typical when I run long.

Batteries are the elephant in the room........ from an economic standpoint, EVs start to look more like cell phones than traditional cars, not a lot of people replace a battery. Admittedly, behaviour has been drifting that way somewhat with ICE cars; noticed at my buddy's shop that a sizeable # of people would just go get a new vehicle once repair costs started to exceed a couple of months payments..... people like new......

If I was in the USA, I'd probably be driving an Ioniq right now - hybrid being a better general fit for me, AND Hyundai was offering what sounded like a true Lifetime warranty on the HV battery to the original purchaser ! Sadly, not the same warranty offered in Canada.

You are enjoying your EV Gale, and that is great ! For not a lot of money used, you have efficient local transportation. EV charge networks are building out, and we do need a lot more of that (back to that point in a bit....). At the moment, if you want to travel distance with an EV you have to do some planning. Some hotel chains got out in front, and for a while at least have a destination/stopover advantage with EV chargers on-site.

A better informed person than I said something like "Most people seriously underestimate the scale of the oil industry". I dial that back to something local.......... I think of an average gas station today, and how many vehicles cycle through there just in the time you fill up, let alone in 20 or 30 minutes. < THAT capacity is going to take a tremendous build-out of public chargers to come close to replacing.

So on the distance issue right now, I think it's not so much Can you Do It, or How Fast is the ReCharge, but more so How Long is the Wait for a Public Charger, esp. on a long-weekend or other peak time.....

Smart businesses will capitalize on this....... good restaurants near public EV chargers may get a nice boost in business.

Things are changing....

Rgds, D.

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^
My (rather extensive) experience with repair bills is that once they start, it’s the beginning on an avalanche. The worst was the 4 year old Dakota with 70k miles I bought in ‘97... I paid $7500 for the truck and as much again in repair bills over the 15 months that I had it... at the time I could have bought a brand new extended cab Ranger 4x4 for the same money. That truck was so bad that I would call the garage to make sure their wrecker was available if I was traveling more than 50 miles from home.

 

[fried1765]

Keep in mind a $5K 2011 Leaf after spending $5K on another battery will still only be worth maybe $5K but it will be easier to sell it. For $10K+ one could get a 5 year newer car with a good battery and remaining factory service. Old sub 100 mile range EV's are not in demand. Think of batteries as engine replacements in ICE vehicles. Sometimes a re-manufactured Jasper engine makes sense but often it does not make $$$$ sense. EV motors are long life and they have no transmission. There is no oil to change and only 10% of the moving parts of an ICE vehicle. In Leafs the 2015 and newer are a different class of vehicle than the earlier imported version. Leafs have been on the market the longest in the USA but I had to go 200 miles to touch my first Leaf which I bought the same day.

If you have never driven an EV then take one for a test drive. For local (50 mile trips) I plan to keep an EV going forward. It is an awesome experience I do not want to give up a month later.

I address fear of the unknown my making the unknown a "known" like in buying my first EV last month. Today I read posts based on fear about EV's just like local farmers bashed diesel tractors back in the 50's and 60's. EV's will replace ICE's like diesel replaced gas tractors over the years. Actually we just my gas tractor running last week. It is a Allis Chambers Model B from 1948. Ditched the old mechanical points and went with electronic for a huge improvement on a 71 year old tractor. If the engine goes down I may go with an electric motor out of something like a wrecked electric motorcycle. That would be cool at old tractor events.

That might be "cool", but a very costly experiment, and with near zero resale value.

 

[3930dave]

That might be "cool", but a very costly experiment, and with near zero resale value.

People that know me (real world), generally consider me careful with money. And, I am.

That said, as I've gotten older, I've now have a little more perspective on You Can't Take It With You ....... Gale is having fun, at way less than what many golf clubs charge for membership, so I say good for him making the leap of electron faith .

This market needs to mature a bit....... Prius battery rebuilders were one of the first third party players to emerge..... with time, perhaps EV batteries will get better support this way, IF they were designed to be serviced originally.

W/O even considering the factory support........ these hybrid and EV manufacturers need to step-up, if they don't have a good cradle to grave (and back) HV battery support program. Traditional 12v batteries have been independently recycled for longer than I've been around, and I think part of that mindset still lingers (factory wise).

Rgds, D.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

That might be "cool", but a very costly experiment, and with near zero resale value.

fried1765 for some reason I have always put a high value on education of any kind. Since I graduated from high school 50 years ago last May I have spent another 12 years of butt in chair classroom training. That does not include any of the OTJ training and my self studies like how to reverse serious health problems by learning what I need to eat and to think.

You may have read another Rural Living thread of mine. https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/rural-living/410059-21-year-old-son-fiancee.html

The son and his twin sister are now 22. The son got married last September and he and his wife are working to finish rebuilding the house on the inside in that thread as they now live in it. Last May he did finish his Associates degree in diesel mechanics at a local college and they asked him to return this last August to assist the faculty member that teaches the diesel program. The trucking industry is starting to test EV's for moving freight. Since he has the 2 bay shop and another large work area we are thinking about buying some wrecked EV cars and get some hands on EV knowledge so when the electric semis come on line the concept of EV hardware and software will be understood. The EV is here today and will become mainstream. The electric hardware and the software that makes it work is becoming the norm more each year. Repair of lithium ion battery packs are already in demand now and even more in going forward.

At 68 and with real physical limits due the arthritis (Ankylosing Spondylitis) my goal is to help develop any interest that the kids may have. The purchase of the Leaf last month plays into that goal. Right now I am working to understand the software bug in the 2016-2017 model of the Leaf with the 30 wKh battery pack. Vehicle repair techs are harder to come by in 20 year old age group. Nothing moves or gets fixed without the use of software. Pistons may go away but not the moving of freight.

After a month of owning the top of the line 2016 Nissan Leaf I know I never want to go back to piston power for daily driving in the local area.

Everything seems costly today including education. Grasping new knowledge about the future that lies in front of us gets me excited.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Report from Germany: Tesla years ahead, German automakers falling behind

This story from a German magazine is on a subject that has crossed my mind of late.

Can MB, BMW, Ford, etc even make it if they could get a profitable EV selection to the market?

Where the free chargers are at the local Ford dealer are near the main to doors to the service bays. They make money on warranted work and from customers. Both of these cash flow sources will be reduced on EV's all agree.

If an old name auto maker bought Tesla would it be good for all parties involved?

EV's may not get traction for a long time if the old line car makers are going to be the major source of EV's. If it plays out like the Ford Pinto and Chevy Vega of 50 years ago the EV's will be imported. I bought my only new car in 1973 and it was a Datsun 1200 (Nissan B-110) because of the Pinto and Vega failure in the high MPG small vehicles. The $10K EV niche is not going to be filled by GM or MB so China may become the new Japan for EV's.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I saw a documentary on that. The Germans are so invested in their leadership with the internal combustion engine, that it's very difficult to just leave that behind and start anew.