Building the Retirement Place

[rtimgray]

My vote is that Eddie is the smartest guy ever!

And to that point, I couldn't agree more with exactly what he said.

Good luck and take care.

 

[dave1949]

Something to consider is that traditional framing of home or building is a very well proven method that works very well. Pole barn style building is a very economical way to create a building that is very strong due to the fact that the poles are set in the ground and continuous up the length of the wall. When you set our pole on top of the ground, or on top of a footing of any kind, you lose all that inherent strength you get from the pole being in the ground. You now have a hinge that required additional engineering to overcome it's desire to fall over, or rack. I think perma columns are a solution to a non existent problem that somebody invented to sell to people who do not understand framing. When a building is built, the first thing you do is build up the pad. This has to be above the surrounding ground so water drains away from it. Posts in the ground do not rot from being in the ground, they rot from water sitting at the base of the post. Same thing happens with fences and any other post in the ground. It car rot completely through, but when you pull up the post that's still in the ground, it's in perfect condition. Once you have proper drainage, and then you put a roof over the posts and walls on the posts, they should remain dry and last a hundred years easily. If they get wet, then that's because somebody didn't do something right with draining the water away from the building.

Trying to combine the two building methods results in compromising their inherent strengths. Converting an existing pole barn is one thing, starting out wanting to build one and then putting the money into converting it into a house is going to cost more then traditional stick framing.

Eddie

Good points Eddie, although you have more faith in wood in the ground than I do.

I don't think comparing a standard pole barn to a pole-built house is apples to apples though in terms of structural strength and the forces that act on the poles. A standard pole barn has virtually no interior walls or floors that act as bracing which makes the pole in the ground more important. A home would have at least several walls and perhaps a framed floor or two.

A similar example is a post & beam timber frame home. They are built on a standard flooring deck or slab with a beam attached to the floor and the posts are attached to that beam. Really not much different in concept than standard house wall framing. There are many old timber frame barns that don't have any poles in the ground. What they do have that modern pole barns do not is one or two floors and interior walls and dividers that make the structure more rigid.

 

[bobm6996]

Good advice/thoughts from Eddie and Dave, much appreciated. I have spent a couple days talking with builders who agree with Eddie that the key is good, no great drainage around the building. I do plan to install a perimeter drain all the way around the building and tie it into a 6" drain that was installed a couple months ago that hooks into a county regulated 12" drain. It was installed to support drainage around the building and the perimeter drain that goes around the septic finger system which is required in this area.

I am now sold and convinced the poles in the ground has minimal risk and does in fact make for a strong structure. And I am very much starting to lean toward the raised floor and not the slab. I am not ready at this point in the build to commit 100% to the location of the plumbing, with a crawlspace I can make those decisions after the interior walls start going up and things begin to look more real and not just my drawing on paper. I have designed the interior rooms myself with of course a lot of input from the wife. Since I plan to do a lot of the interior myself and knowing that as I ask for advice/suggestions on this forum will change as we move forward. My primary reason for building this type of home was the flexibility to decide things somewhat on the fly.

So, I would now appreciate input on the commitment to a crawlspace and how I close in the crawlspace to make it tight from critters and weather conditions. We plan at this point in time to cover the exterior in a insulation backed thicker than normal vinyl siding. Possibly a fake stone vinyl on the bottom two or three feet. Need to make sure the crawl is warm in the winter and that it stays dry. Planning to use pea gravel, some type of heavy plastic vapor barrier, what else should I do? Considering a sump pump pit and pump just in case it ever got wet, but the elevation is high enough it should not, but was thinking I could run some pipe in the crawl to the sump pit like they do under a basement, does that make sense?

 

[grainger12002]

In ct we have to permit if we need to sneeze and the fees are just outrageous, when we retire it wont be here in CT

Good luck w your project and keep the posts coming so when can share the experience !!

Stay healthy !!

From Ct

 

[buckeyefarmer]

I know Morton builds pole type commercial buildings on a traditional foundation. They use brackets in the concrete foundation to attach the poles. Don't see why they can't do it above a basement.

 

[ultrarunner]

In ct we have to permit if we need to sneeze and the fees are just outrageous, when we retire it wont be here in CT

Good luck w your project and keep the posts coming so when can share the experience !!

Stay healthy !!

From Ct

Good topic and one I'm very much interested.

Here in the SF Bay Area it can years to idea to finish plus the cost.

Technically to pull and reset a toilet requires a permit just like moving a gas stove or dryer when putting in a new floor covering... or changing out windows... not glass.

 

[farmer2009]

With a pole barn style build and a conditioned crawl space. I would look at adding a footer between the poles and laying 6 inch block. This will allow you to seal off the crawl space in a normal manner then you can treat the outside anyway you want. No worries of rot.

One other option would be to build the crawl space like a wooden basement.

 

[dave1949]

I don't have any good ideas on how to seal the walls at the bottom when using a crawlspace. This IN company builds pole homes on a slab or with a crawlspace:
Indiana Pole Barns


Post frame homes offer excellent value, Typical price for a ready to move in home is $60 - $70 per square foot. We can build 1 or 2 story homes on a slab or crawl space. Roof options include steel and shingles, and exterior options include steel, vinyl, wood and brick.

You could call or visit them and find out what they do around a crawlspace. You are legitimately planning on building a pole home and you owe it to yourself to check out the various builders and techniques in any case.

 

[rtimgray]

My only further recommendation would be to really try to do more up-front planning, as far as interior walls, etc. go. I know this is a tough thing to visualize, but it can same massive amounts of headaches (and dollars) down the road.

I draw a lot of houseplans for people, and I understand that some folks (and I will say that it seems to be more so the ladies rather than the gentlemen, sexist as that may be) have a hard time understanding how the size of a room on a drawing relates to the size of a room in real life. It usually involves taking a tape measure and walking around a existing house and showing how big each room is. I've been along for this exercise a couple of times and it can be a real eye-opener.

By no means will this take away any changes that are desired going forward, but in this case an ounce of prevention is usually worth a couple of pounds of cure.

Good luck and take care.

 

[BKBrown]

I admit that I have not read the entire thread - so - If things have already been mentioned - ignore them. I designed our home. Remember that everyone gets older and plan on handicap access for walkways (hallways) and bathrooms. Use ramps instead of stairs when it is possible - stairs should have low risers. More closets and cabinets than you think you will need. Garage is better than leaving equipment / vehicles outside - attached garage is best. Floor trusses instead of joists makes wiring and plumbing easy. We did hip roof so that there are no gables to take care of and wind to catch. I hate painting so our interior is all T&G walls and ceiling. Laundry on main floor.

 

[GLyford]

If you're going to use pole brackets on piers, you could run a trencher around the perimeter and tie them all together. Would probably need to go to frost depth to prevent uplift. I have heard this type of foundation called a "rat wall".

Did something similar on a smallish shed, but only went down about 2 feet. Piers were augured to full depth (4' here). Connected it all with rebar, then poured. Set anchors for metal uprights with a jig. Hasn't been thrown out of the ground by frost yet, but it's only been up a handful of years so far...and I'm not living in it.

 

[bobm6996]

Have not posted lately because I have been tied up working on getting the health dept to issue a septic permit, finally got that done last week. Got a couple prices from builders to put up the horse barn (40x80x12 with a 16' lean to down one side). Got the hay baled last week so I can now let the barn get started, plan to go get the permit for it this week. Builder is two weeks out, so should start soon. Wife is back on wanting a partial basement, so that is back in the plan. Have price from one builder to put up the shell of the house and waiting on two more. The permit requirements and the amount of government involvement in this process is ridiculous at times. You deal with people who probably could not build a bird house and they think they are qualified to tell you how to build a house. If I have offended an inspector who might be on this forum, my apologies, just venting.
We (wife and I) have been trying to finalize what we want for windows, doors and siding and will start thinking about kitchen, baths and flooring. We have storage capability, so thinking if we can decide on some of the finish stuff, if we see a good deal we can go and buy and store until ready to installed.

Now that the hay is baled (had a great first cut) I will start taking the pictures of the bare field so I have the starting point and then do my best to take pictures a couple times a week as we progress. We are going to be on a tight schedule with the time we have to vacate our current property, going to be a very busy summer.

 

[ultrarunner]

Do you have "Design Review" or "View Plane" ordinances?

Design Review literally can dictate every aspect of the building exterior right down to the how many feet of straight walls, gutter colors, type of roof, height variations, etc... rational is so the house won't just be another "Box"

View Plane can make a two store home one story should it not blend in with the natural contours of the land...

Friend was building his forever home and wanted a 3 car attached garage... could not have it because of a tree... built his home with a two car and 3 years later a freak lightning strike took out the tree... of course the home was already built so no way for a third garage space to be added.

Sounds like you are making good headway.... just don't loose the momentum.

40 by 80 with lean is a nice size.

 

[bobm6996]

ultrarunner - we are out in the country, so no rules really related to the design. The county does try to dictate some bldg standards that make sense and some that do not. The health dept. has been the most challenging so far, but got through it. I have to get a couple changes made to the plat plan so will be meeting with the surveyor this week. The health inspector changed the design of the septic we had in the plat plan and I/We decided to move the horse barn from one side of the property to the other (no change in size). So, the way the county planning commission works you have to present a plat plan that identifies all buildings on the property (existing and new) and distances to each property line in all directions. You also have to include well, septic, drainage ditches/drains and elevations for the entire acreage. It is 15 acres out in the country, but you would think I am building in a subdivision with all of the hoops you have to jump through. But, will get the two building permits I need now and things will start moving quickly.

 

[ultrarunner]

It's great when a plan become reality... looking forward to pictures!

 

[hcallaway]

I had to deal with the same kind of issues, but I will say, keep my fingers crossed, once all the permits were in place things are really taking off. Even with the detached garage, the inspector would not give a final OK but told the builder that we were OK to start using it for storage. He would give us a final when the house and garage are complete for the grading that has to be completed. If all the hassle is up front then I guess I cannot continue to complain. Continued good luck with the project I have enjoyed it.

ultrarunner - we are out in the country, so no rules really related to the design. The county does try to dictate some bldg standards that make sense and some that do not. The health dept. has been the most challenging so far, but got through it. I have to get a couple changes made to the plat plan so will be meeting with the surveyor this week. The health inspector changed the design of the septic we had in the plat plan and I/We decided to move the horse barn from one side of the property to the other (no change in size). So, the way the county planning commission works you have to present a plat plan that identifies all buildings on the property (existing and new) and distances to each property line in all directions. You also have to include well, septic, drainage ditches/drains and elevations for the entire acreage. It is 15 acres out in the country, but you would think I am building in a subdivision with all of the hoops you have to jump through. But, will get the two building permits I need now and things will start moving quickly.

 

[bobm6996]

Duke Energy called back yesterday and approved bringing power back to the location for the house and barns (750 feet). It will come underground from the road to a transformer supplying a minimum of 400 amps, price tag: $6,600. Not cheap, but really don't have much choice.

Got my final pricing from the pole barn and house shell builder and gave him the approval to move forward with both. Have to now get truss specs, survey plat map and building drawings and go start working on getting a permit to build both. Builder should be ready to start mid-July so have some time to begin doing some land prep for the pole barn and getting some stakes in the ground to layout the approximate location of the buildings. Need it to stop raining or the build will be slowed down before we ever get rolling.

Plan to start taking pics this weekend and begin sharing in this thread. Finally, feel like things are starting to get going.

 

[bobm6996]

OMG, the permit process is INSANE. After 3 trips in the past week, yesterday I got through the permit request process and should have the building permits for the house and horse barn by early next week at the latest. Got the inspector to accept everything and then the clerk handed both packets I put together and she told me to take them to the surveyors office for sign-off. Got there and was told could take a week and there is a $200 Erosion Control fee that has to be paid today. I said fine, but is there any way to get this approved this week, the surveyor is very familiar with the property as she spent a lot of time there when the new county regulated drain was installed a few months back. I told the power company will not bring power back until I have an address and that cannot be assigned until I get the building permit. She is gong to try and see if can be approved today.

The basement is out after experiencing sticker shock based on county inspector requirements, which pleases me, wife not happy but realized the extra cost did not make sense. So, it will be the pole house with a full crawlspace. Had three tri-axles of fill dirt delivered yesterday as I was planning to use the dirt from the basement dig to fill in the house and horse barn after they are up. Will need more and it should be on the way over the next few days. We have had over 9 inches of rain for the month of June, so hopefully this will stop and the field can dry up quick. The crew wants to start the horse barn next week, but it will probably be the following week since I did not get permits this week yet.

I am OK with a week or two delay on starting building as I would like to see if the rain will stop long enough to get the 2nd cut of hay off before we start. I only lose about an acre, so no big deal really if we have to start building before it can be done.

Never thought it would take this long to get going or I would have held off on starting the project thread, but we are only days away now from getting going and it will move pretty fast early on.

Getting tired of waking up in the middle of the night thinking about everything that has to be done, just want to get going. I did wake up at 3 am this morning and had what I think might be a great idea. The house is going to have a 400 amp service and I will then run power to the horse barn and the existing hay barn. There may be other things that will be ran to them, so had the idea to dig a trench to each from the house and place pvc pipe in the hole. Then during the installation of the pipe run 4 or 5 ropes from house end to the barn end and tie them off. Then when ready to run the power, maybe cat5, security and phone all I have to do is attach the wire/cabling to one of the ropes and pull it through, do not have to leave the trench open for a long time.

Hope to be kickin' some butt real soon.

 

[aczlan]

Getting tired of waking up in the middle of the night thinking about everything that has to be done, just want to get going. I did wake up at 3 am this morning and had what I think might be a great idea. The house is going to have a 400 amp service and I will then run power to the horse barn and the existing hay barn. There may be other things that will be ran to them, so had the idea to dig a trench to each from the house and place pvc pipe in the hole. Then during the installation of the pipe run 4 or 5 ropes from house end to the barn end and tie them off. Then when ready to run the power, maybe cat5, security and phone all I have to do is attach the wire/cabling to one of the ropes and pull it through, do not have to leave the trench open for a long time.

Low voltage should not be in the same conduit as power (and in many cases, it needs 18-36" of separation between the conduits).
I would try to pull all the cables at the same time as that will be easier than trying to pull them one at a time.

Aaron Z

 

[bobm6996]

13 inches of rain in June and so far in July, yikes! No work has started, I have all of my permits and the Amish crew is ready to get started but the rain just keeps coming. Too wet to even try and stake off areas or mow the area where barn and house are going. It will take 3 to 4 days to dry enough to get a tri-axle in to haul stone to make a drive so they can start delivering materials. Storming really bad right now, this has got to stop. Weather channel is saying at least another week to week and a half of this pattern. Current place sold and we have to be gone by 12/31/15 period, no extension can be granted since being sold to a business who is wanting to start construction. May be living in a Pod on our property with all of our stuff!