Building the Retirement Place

[Citydude]

I'm having trouble understanding how the garage floor is the same level as the living area. I've never seen that where I live.

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[ultrarunner]

The picture I posted is not the best... it's from Google Earth.

The concrete garage floor is the exact same height as the finished framed floor inside the house... barely a bump for a person in a wheel chair.... maybe a 1/4 inch max... the thickness of the Designer Solarium Lino Floor.

Come to think about it... a lot of homes in my part of California are totally barrier free as far as having no steps...

My parents home is split level and the garage inside garage door opens up to the family room... all on the same level.

Basements are as rare as hens teeth here... homes either have a crawl space or built on slab...

 

[Citydude]

The picture I posted is not the best... it's from Google Earth. The concrete garage floor is the exact same height as the finished framed floor inside the house... barely a bump for a person in a wheel chair.... maybe a 1/4 inch max... the thickness of the Designer Solarium Lino Floor. Come to think about it... a lot of homes in my part of California are totally barrier free as far as having no steps... My parents home is split level and the garage inside garage door opens up to the family room... all on the same level. Basements are as rare as hens teeth here... homes either have a crawl space or built on slab...

All the homes here have foundations with basements or crawl spaces with the garage floor lower than the living areas. Probably because of all the snow, ice, and mud our vehicles pack into the garages.

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[ultrarunner]

Not too much chance of that here...

Last snowfall was back in 77... got 2.5 to 3 inches and the world as we know it stopped.

Even a film of a guy skiing down market street in San Francisco.

Being kids... we thought it was great and made snowmen

My brother had an F250 4wd pickup and made quite a bit of money that day... towing cars that had slid of the side of the road or that couldn't back up their driveways...

 

[JimRB]

The land of electric cars, no lawns and no natural gas in the house. No explosive fumes or CO so no need to have a dropped garage? I wonder if they have no gasoline powered devices if they require the 2 hour firewall in the garage that they require on the east coast?

 

[ultrarunner]

Yes... fire rock is required as is self closing fire rated door from garage to house... even 65 years ago, garages here had double sheetrock separation between home and attached garage.

Gasoline powered equipment use is declining... mostly left to the professionals ;-)

I've never seen so many plug in a battery mowers... of course now without lawns... ???

Don't forget fireplaces are being outlawed and in some areas must be removed in order to sell...

I have lots of storm damage fallen oak that just sits... can't give the stuff away in my part of the Bay Area.

Sure is very different now as compared to the time when I was growing up here.

Think it's great anytime someone can realize/make a dream come true...

For me that would have to include a proper shop and workshop... maybe provision for possible solar later?

 

[bobm6996]

Dave1949 - No one is going to offend me on this forum, I have found over the years the people here are great and try very hard to help each other. We have put a lot of thought into planning for the two of us getting older and planning the construction for it. That is what we find frustrating about house plans today, we want the old farmhouse look of years past, not crazy about all of this "open concept" crap. Large rooms and the primary needs on the fist floor is what we want.

Lots of comments about the basement in a pole barn and I appreciate the input and it has caused many a night of lost sleep over the past couple months. Still thinking this over, no final decision made yet. I started out thinking pole barn house with a poured concrete floor, but I am so worried about plumbing problems, wanting to run a new electrical outlet, speaker wires, other things that come up after construction is complete. I know lots of homes are built on them, then I thought I could build the pole barn and just put a joist type floor in it with a crawl space but no basement. The wife wants the basement for storage and storm protection and who knows what in the future. Maybe we could just build a good size storm shelter and somehow attach to house with an entrance to it from inside.

Any help on making the basement decision will be greatly appreciated.

Eddie and others - I envy your states where there is not so much red tape to build. I can understand maybe in a subdivision, but we are out in the country on acreage. I feel like I should be able to do pretty much whatever I want, but not here in IN.

 

[bobm6996]

CurlyDave - I am capturing every idea on this thread being offered and you have some very good ones, thanks.

 

[bobm6996]

Update - First of all thanks for all of the great comments/feedback. Last week got the new plat maps for the property from the surveyor dividing the property into two tracts; front tract is 1.5 acre (zoned residential) that has the rental house on it and the remaining tract is 13.5 acres (zoned farm). In our county if you have 10 or more acres zoned farm you get a little relief from some of the hoops you have to jump through to build. Took those to the lawyer so he can get a new warranty deed filed with the county. Went to the county health dept. and paid the application fee to get an onsite visit from them they can tell me where they want me to put the septic system, the type it has to be and the sizing. If he is happy then I go back and get the actual permit to allow it to be built. I can then take that and go to the planning commission, provide some type of drawings of what I want to do, the plat maps showing where the structures will be built and if they are happy I get to pay about $500 for a building permit. Also, contacted the power company and they will be out June 2nd to do the initial engineering visit to get power back to the house location, which is about 700 feet off the road, might as well go rob Ft. Know now.

Hopefully we can get started by mid June building something.

Plan to meet with two different builders who have built pole barn/frame homes in this area and get their ideas on the best approach. If it helps to provide advice these are the important factors for us in our planning:

1) Most home for the money spent as with pretty much everybody
2) Like to openness of a pole structure so we do not have to worry about interior load bearing walls allowing for more flexibility
3) Farmhouse look inside and out
4) Wanting something in the 2500 sq. ft + range, wife wants big of course
5) We would like the basement or something for storage and storm protection
6) We think we would like a 1 1/2 story so we can put a couple bedrooms upstairs for guests and family
7) Ground floor has to have large kitchen, pantry, family room, living/parlor room, dining room, master bedroom with master bath and large walk in closet(s)
8) If we can add an office/guest bedroom with a full bath on the fist floor that would be great.

I have floor plan drawn up that utilizes a 30x60 footprint, would like to stick with that

We have considered the Menards/Lowes house packages but none of the plans are quite what we want and not comfortable with the pricing, I bet it goes up significantly.

Our son is a contractor so we will be able to get things like windows, doors, siding, roofing and subcontractors at this pricing he uses to help keep costs down. We just thought all along that we could just draw up a set of plans that is what we want and go build it, the pole barn/frame seemed to be the most cost effective and give us the most flexibility.

Our county will allow hand drawn plans, which does help. Your ideas on the slab floor in the pole barn and how to get a basement or equivalent will be greatly appreciated.

 

[murphy1244]

My house is a pole barn design with a slab floor and the garage is 12" below the house.

 

[bobm6996]

Murph - Nice looking home, if you don't mind I would like to ask a few questions.

How old is your home
Was it basically a pole barn type construction/structure with stud walls added between the posts
What size is it total, looks pretty good size
Does it heat and cool pretty economically
Any regrets, anything you would have done differently
Any issues with the slab floor and what type of covering do you have over it

Thanks in advance for your response and your time

 

[murphy1244]

1. Built in 1978 https://www.facebook.com/IllesArchitects?fref=nf
2. yes
3.3400 sft
4. yes, the house has 2 furnaces. 40000 and a 60000 BTU. GAs
5. Would have a Front porch. Make sure to run your water up thru the attic instead of the slab. Also I would have run a upflow system instead of down flow.
6. No, carpet and wood floor.

 

[bobm6996]

Looking for advice on the roofing choice, we meet with a representative from Morton Buildings in the next few days.

Metal or Shingles

Also, I ask the builder if they have built pole frame homes on something other than a concrete slab and was told they built over basements and crawlspaces as well. Can't wait to hear how they do it, still want to go with the basement if anyway possible.

Waiting on health inspector to setup the appointment for the septic permit meeting onsite, being told by contractors and a local lawyer that this guy is a total douche bag, this may be the more challenging piece of the permit process.

Power company coming out next Tuesday to begin the engineering process to get power back to the new construction.

Going to start taking pics this week of the property so I have the starting point captured because I hoping it all starts moving very soon.

 

[EddieWalker]

Have you looked into metal framing like what is used on metal barn/workshops? Big metal columns set on the concrete slab and trusses that give you an open vaulted space set about 12 to 16 feet apart. Then you just wood frame your walls wherever you want them if you want a more traditional looking home. Or you can go with the metal siding if you like that look and wood frame the interior walls for sheetrock.

Eddie

 

[dave1949]

Regarding the basement decision:

I think the first consideration is if your building site is really suitable for a basement. By that I mean will it be dry, will you be able to use gravity foundation drains or need to rely on a sump pump. Basements are nice, usable spaces for living, storage and utilities/mechanical systems if they are dry. If not dry, they can be just a PITA. At retirement age, I wouldn't put a laundry room in a basement though.

Having grown up in NW Ohio, I think humidity control in the basement will be a necessity. If you include the basement in your HVAC plans, that would be a big improvement over a stand-alone dehumidifier people often buy when they see humidity problems developing. They are expensive and expensive to run in terms of electric usage. To avoid carrying buckets of condensate upstairs, they also need a floor drain, or you need to lift/pump the drain water to the waste line height.

I agree, the ability to access much of your electric, plumbing, and duct work if present, from the basement is a huge plus. That's one thing I really like about basements.

Basements can make good tornado shelters. Depending on your normal activities the utility of a basement can be increased by installing a bulkhead entrance. Google "Bilco basement door". Storage, service and repair access other than through your house and down the basement stairs is a nice plus.

If you are into gardening, a portion of the basement could be built and conditioned to be a root cellar and preserved/canned food storage. It's also good way to store bulk local fruits and vegetables bought in season at (somewhat) reasonable prices. To do it well, you would need at least two root cellar rooms with different temperature and humidity levels. Stored apples give off a gas, ethylene, that over-ripens and rots other things.

I you decide to have a basement or partial basement, I think it would make more sense to align the basement perimeter with the exterior walls. You could do a full basement, or split the area in half, or an L-shape. If you build a basement 10' inside the exterior perimeter, that 10' of space would be either a crawl space or a slab. If it is a crawl space, to look good and for HVAC considerations it would have to be enclosed by the basement wall or a framed knee wall built on top of the basement wall. If it's a slab then you need to place it level with the top of floor above the basement to have one-level floors in the house. Doable but it will add time and labor expense.

I don't know why you couldn't build "pole style" on top of a basement wall; there is no reason to separate those two things as far as I know. The basement wall and its footer is a better foundation than a pole in the ground, or a pole on a sonotube or Perma Column: https://www.permacolumn.com/

That's my basement brain dump. Good luck with your decision.

 

[farmer2009]

Sounds like you have a nice plan. I understand the pole barn concept to building a house is to have all non-load bearing interior walls. But if you move your basement walls out to the main level walls then they could be stick built and just have your trusses designed for a clear span building. Seams to me it would be easier and faster to stick build than to have basically two different foundations.

Look forward to more updates.

 

[bobm6996]

After talking with a couple builders and spending a lot of time online we have decided to not build the basement in the pole style home. So, now we are working on deciding whether we go with the pole framing with a slab or with a raised floor with crawlspace.
This very frustrating and stressful, most research shows that the "experts" say the best way to go is with the crawlspace, the additional cost is worth it. I can see value in having access to the underside of the home in the crawlspace, I do not like the idea of a slab with sewer, plumbing and possibly some electrical in the floor. I also think about the challenges of deciding you want to run a new electrical outlet somewhere or change the location of a plumbed item in the home.
Where I struggle with the crawlspace is the exterior wall and where it meets the ground. Dave1949 sent me the link to Perma columns, which I really like an may go with makes total sense, keeps the wood out of the ground. I can give the crawlspace 30" to 36" of height, cover the ground with pea gravel and put down a vapor barrier like in traditional crawls, but I am still hung up on the perimeter being a treated 2" by something and the grade brought up against on the outside perimeter. It would seem that critters could dig under the wood and get into the crawl, I can and would insulate the inside of the crawlspace wall all the way around with Styrofoam, but that will not keep the critters or even moisture out, although there will be plenty of fall away from the house and I am considering a perimeter drain all the way around.
Talked with a concrete guy who said he can build us a storm shelter attached to the rear of the home with a door coming out of the garage down steps to the shelter and put the hydraulic type steel doors to allow an exit to the outside from the shelter, good idea we like and a lot cheaper than a basement.

Basement is out and I got wife to agree being in our 60's we do not need a partial or full second story, will put fake dormers and life is good. Stairs are something we will want to navigate in a few more years.

Any thoughts/ideas/comments on slab vs. crawlspace and how to protect the exterior perimeter from intrusion by critters and mother nature.

Thanks for all of the feedback, hope I do not become a pain as we move forward and your help ceases, it is greatly appreciated. Perfect example are the ideas about building to support our aging and the Perma columns is great, I really like those.

 

[dave1949]

A 30-36 inch crawlspace is pretty tight for anything but actual crawling. :laughing: A standard table top is 30", a kitchen counter is 35"-36". Sit down under your table and see what that looks like and imagine working in that space. My eyes are about even with a 30" table top when sitting upright on my butt.

The only way I know to alleviate most of the worries regarding a slab is to cluster the plumbing close to an outside wall and connect it to a central plumbing room. Something like a kitchen plumbing wall (sink & dishwasher) back to back or inline with a bathroom or laundry room for example. Then you could have a plumbing room built into and below the slab floor for the well tank (assuming you have a well), water heater, supply water and waste lines. Think of a small room with a lower floor that is inset into your house exterior wall. You would probably want access from inside and outside to that room.

If you have two or more plumbing clusters the waste lines can be joined outside before heading for the septic or sewer. The domestic hot & cold water supply lines can be run in a PVC pipe under the slab from the main cluster to to the other(s). You could easily run PEX in the PVC pipe and all supply line joints would be above the slab. All drains that don't enter the plumbing room would need to be near an outside wall such that a small chase can be built under the slab to provide access.

This would give you easy water line replacement and waste line access without cutting the slab. Moving a plumbing fixture would still be tough to do but that isn't often done unless the original design is lacking. Clustering the plumbing will save you money in material and labor, and keeping the water heater near the points of use will prevent waiting for hot water which lowers your water heating costs too.

Unless you have floor outlets, the wiring for a slab home will come from the attic. Fixes and changes can usually be fished down the walls if need be. If you have floor outlets in a slab the wire will be in PVC conduit run below the slab and easy enough to replace. Adding or moving would be very difficult. You can use fake hollow posts to drop wiring from the attic for outlets and light fixtures in large, open rooms.

 

[dave1949]

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/241144-long-road-home.html

In the above thread, the OP, Lee, built a pole barn using Perma columns. There are good pics and discussion about them. Unfortunately just as he was finishing the barn, he had to move. Page 23 has a good pic of the frame using Perma columns.

I miss Lee's posts. He was a can-do DIY type of guy.

 

[EddieWalker]

Something to consider is that traditional framing of home or building is a very well proven method that works very well. Pole barn style building is a very economical way to create a building that is very strong due to the fact that the poles are set in the ground and continuous up the length of the wall. When you set our pole on top of the ground, or on top of a footing of any kind, you lose all that inherent strength you get from the pole being in the ground. You now have a hinge that required additional engineering to overcome it's desire to fall over, or rack. I think perma columns are a solution to a non existent problem that somebody invented to sell to people who do not understand framing. When a building is built, the first thing you do is build up the pad. This has to be above the surrounding ground so water drains away from it. Posts in the ground do not rot from being in the ground, they rot from water sitting at the base of the post. Same thing happens with fences and any other post in the ground. It car rot completely through, but when you pull up the post that's still in the ground, it's in perfect condition. Once you have proper drainage, and then you put a roof over the posts and walls on the posts, they should remain dry and last a hundred years easily. If they get wet, then that's because somebody didn't do something right with draining the water away from the building.

Trying to combine the two building methods results in compromising their inherent strengths. Converting an existing pole barn is one thing, starting out wanting to build one and then putting the money into converting it into a house is going to cost more then traditional stick framing.

Eddie