glad I asked before i tried. So i guess IF the plunger/gear is in the fuel cutoff position and the vertical slot in the plunger aligns with the feed hole than INDIRECTLY the fuel is coming from the fuel chamber?
thanks again
CK25 will not start
- Thread starter econ99
- Start date
- Views: 33053
glad I asked before i tried. So i guess IF the plunger/gear is in the fuel cutoff position and the vertical slot in the plunger aligns with the feed hole than INDIRECTLY the fuel is coming from the fuel chamber?
thanks again
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Yup. Check any of those IP diagrams in any of the workskop manuals and you'll see: when the feed hole aligns with the slot, fuel can flow from the feed chamber, through the feed hole, up the slot past the top of the plunger, and right out the top of the IP (if the delivery valve is removed).
But if the delivery value is not removed( as in my case) and IF rack is jammed/stuck in stop position(as I am assuming at this point) then how is any pressure being created to cause delivery valve to open to allow fuel at this nut(valve delivery holder)?
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Your analysis is correct. with any plunger in the "fuel off" orientation (normally controlled by the bear and the rack), the plunger will just go up and down without creating any significant pressure at the top of the plunger. That's because any pressure above the plunger is relieved down the slot and pout the feed hole. Actual injection pumping can't begin until the plunger rotates the slot away from the feed hole. Then it will pump on each stroke until the slanted relief slot rises to meet the feed hole (where pressure is again released.
I agree. Look at the EX manuals for our engines. I plan on ordering the correct DK45S manual from Tony tomorrow. Documentation is Kioti's weak point but maybe the new manual will be better, the EX manual sure was.
I agree. Look at the EX manuals for our engines. I plan on ordering the correct DK45S manual from Tony tomorrow. Documentation is Kioti's weak point but maybe the new manual will be better, the EX manual sure was.
I know you feel like you answered this already but I still dont see how econ99 can be getting fuel at this nut (valve delivery holder) when loosened if the delivery valve is still in IP? Is it fuel left over before tractor stopped?
Let me know what tony says about manuals.
thanks Scott
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
First item: The lift pump pushes fuel into the IP's fuel chamber under, maybe, 20 PSI. When the feed hole aligns with the vertical slot (shutoff condition) this fuel flows through the feed hole, up the slot, and into the delivery chamber (space above the plunger). See #1 and #2 in the photo in post 36. Now, if you crack the nut at the bottom of the delivery valve, that breaks the seal between the IP and delivery valve allowing fuel to flow out (under the 20 PSI of the lift pump). But it takes a lot more than 20 psi to open the delivery valve so nothing will come out if you crack the nut on the top of the delivery valve (which connects the delivery valve to the pipe). And the IP plunger cannot develop higher pressure (like 2000 PSI) because the slot provides an open passage between the delivery chamber and the fuel chamber.
Second: I talked to Tony at length this afternoon and it turns out the "correct" workshop manual for our tractors (pages dated Nov 2004 and back cover dated 2005) shows the old (prior to s/n EC4400209) stop solenoid configuration. Newer manuals that show our SS configuration have transmission (and probably other) data is wrong for our tractors. So, there actually is no manual for our tractors that is right for the engine and transmission. The best option, IMO, is to use the 2004/2005 DK45S shop manual for everything except the engine fuel controls and use the EX 35/40/45/50 manual for the fuel controls. I might add that Tony said our machines are (at least in some ways) superior to later DK45S models (and several hundred pounds heavier) .
I also asked Tony about just removing the SS. He said the SS guide protrudes into the IP, which is why it is lose if the IP and manual stop lever are removed; but it should be secure if only the SS is removed. This agrees with the EX manual that says you can remove just the SS to check injection timing but to use care not to lose the guide if you remove the IP.
Last edited:
I enjoy the very technical conversation. I wish I was as knowledgeable as all of you. Unfortunately, while I followed most of the conversation. I am lost on what to do next to get the tractor running. Should I be removing the IP and opening it up to examine the guts?
Thanks.
Thanks.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
Econ, The fact you get fuel at location #1 but not at #2 (referring to your photo) while cranking means a) fuel is getting to the injection pump (IP) and b) the IP is not pumping. This means either c) the shutoff solenoid is holding the IP rack in the off position or d) the IP rack is jammed internally in the off position. I believe you said you checked the shutoff solenoid and it is OK. So you need to check to see if the IP rack is stuck. There are a couple different configurations but look a cover on the block plate just below the IP. On the newer models the oil fill cap is on this plate. On older models the shaft for the manual and electrical (stop solenoid) engine shutoff runs through this plate. Remove the plate and you should see the fuel control rack pin. Try to move this pin (left and right) using light to moderate force from one or two fingers. If it's working normally, the rack should move smoothly against spring pressure trying to push the rack on the full on (right) position. Possibly, something is jamming the rack and you'll be able to shake it lose. But if the rack stays jammed (you can't move it) the next step will be to remove the IP to see what's causing the jam.
I recommend you use a service manual if you need to remove the IP and also a digital camera to document the exact position of the various levers and springs during each step of IP removal. IP parts are not separately available and a new IP costs over $1000, sorry bout that. However, if the damage is limited to the gear(s) that rotate the plungers and the teeth on the rack are 100% OK, it is possible (someone reported) to disassemble the IP and rotate the damaged gear(s) 180 degrees (so undamaged teeth engage the rack) and reassemble. One caution, the plungers and the cylinders are matched sets so always keep each plunger in the original cylinder.
I recommend you use a service manual if you need to remove the IP and also a digital camera to document the exact position of the various levers and springs during each step of IP removal. IP parts are not separately available and a new IP costs over $1000, sorry bout that. However, if the damage is limited to the gear(s) that rotate the plungers and the teeth on the rack are 100% OK, it is possible (someone reported) to disassemble the IP and rotate the damaged gear(s) 180 degrees (so undamaged teeth engage the rack) and reassemble. One caution, the plungers and the cylinders are matched sets so always keep each plunger in the original cylinder.
Thanks so much Scott,
Had about two weeks of computer troubles. I am at public library now. I also called tony about two days ago and he feels it is fuel related. said he could get manual but would not be any different then what we already have. I think we are going to remove oil fill cap like you instructed econ99 in next reply and see if can move rack pin to determine if rack is stuck before we go any futher. will try to let you know what we find but depends on computer access.
I think your opinion is correct about the manuals.
When we put gauge on fuel line that connects to IP and cranked engine the gauge only gave us 8 psi reading. Not sure if this would effect not enough flow of fuel into IP or not.
Thanks again
. 
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
For econ99: Correct. Now that I see that you have the newer style stop solenoid, you should also remove the stop solenoid when you do this check. The stop solenoid has a strong spring that operates on a rod to push and hold the rack to the full-off position. When the key is "on" an electrical solenoid is supposed to overcome this spring and retract the rod; only then can the rack move freely. So the stop solenoid should be removed to ensure the rack is free to move.
When you have that cover off, you'll see a "pin" with springs and levers. The pin is attached to the rack. The springs and levers act on this pin to move the rack to inject more or less fuel depending on "throttle" position and engine rpm. The so-called "throttle" actually sets the rpm via a balance between the centrifugal governor force and the spring force from the throttle linkage.
But the bottom line is this: if the rack is jammed (with the stop solenoid removed) there's something wring inside the IP.
When you have that cover off, you'll see a "pin" with springs and levers. The pin is attached to the rack. The springs and levers act on this pin to move the rack to inject more or less fuel depending on "throttle" position and engine rpm. The so-called "throttle" actually sets the rpm via a balance between the centrifugal governor force and the spring force from the throttle linkage.
But the bottom line is this: if the rack is jammed (with the stop solenoid removed) there's something wring inside the IP.
Last edited:
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
8 psi is probably fine. You only need enough pressure to push fuel through the filter and into the IP.
Well bad news. Removed SS and tested it and was fine, then removed oil fill flange and when tried to move IP rack to the right it was frozen about as much as could be (this was done while SS still removed). I guess now will need to install new pump, dissmantel old pump and try to see what broke.
Hope for you Econ99 that your rack moves and it is something else. If not though and you need to replace yours maybe this next question will be of benefit to both of us.
Is this type k mini pump a pluge and play meaning no timing of gears? Do you know if checking for injection timing in the Dk45s(dk451) manual is nesseccary?
Thanks
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
No hablo k mini, but ... there are no adjustments inside the actual injection pump itself. Timing is set by shimming between the block and the injection pump flange. I think you'll be fine if you just install a new pump using the old shims. You have to put it back together anyway to check timing, anyway, so just put it back together and check injection timing some later day if you don't think it's running right. If the timing is out, you'll then need to order different shims. This way you'll have a running tractor in case you have to wait for parts.
grainger12002
Platinum Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2002
- Messages
- 806
- Location
- Pomfret,Connecticut
- Tractor
- yanmar 336d w ldr,Cub,many attachments
remember before you spend lots of money, there are good diesel shops that can do repairs to the inj pump. See if you have a local shop or if the dealer could recommend a shop to fix the frozen rack.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
The often-reported failure mode is broken teeth on the plunger gear(s) and/or rack. These are not precision matched parts like the plunger and cylinder. If someone had a source for replacements for the rack and these gears the pumps would not be hard to rebuild. So far, I have not seen reports of parts or successful IP rebuilds except for one lister: his rack was OK so he just re-installed his gears 180 degrees so the bad teeth didn't touch the rack. A source for these parts would be a boon to quite a few folks, I imagine. A real Bosch Diesel shop may well be able to fix these things for little money.
If material is bad on one side of the gear to let it break then you might not get too many hours before teeth on other side would break. When we had the oil fill flange off you could just see the very tip top of the teeth on plunger gears and they are really tiny.
Will let you know what we find when disassemble.
I opened the oil fill flange and removed the solenoid. Felt around in there everything seemed in place nothing on the bottom. Moved what I think is the plunger back and forth by putting my finder into the solenoid hole and pushing. Then feeling what it moved from the oil flange opening. Pushed it back and forth. Put it all back together. Next I had 2 injectors cracked. One closest to the front of the tractor and one closest to the back. When I cranked the key the front injector spurted a nice strong stream. The back just bubbled a bit but no strong stream like the front one. tightened both down and tried starting hoping the front one would be enough. No go.
Another side question, should the oil fill flange area of the IP have oil. I was expecting an oily mess when opening, but it was pretty dry. checked dip stick level is fine.
Another side question, should the oil fill flange area of the IP have oil. I was expecting an oily mess when opening, but it was pretty dry. checked dip stick level is fine.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
The fact you seem to get different flow from different injector pipes may just be air in the lines or it could be an internal failure inside the injector pump (IP) or delivery valves. It sounds like you are able to move the IP rack so the rack isn't jammed but gear teeth could still be missing allowing different fuel amounts going to different injectors.
You can charge up the battery and then crank until you are sure there is no air left in the lines to the injectors. If you still get good fuel t othe line to one injector but not to another, I'd say the IP or delivery valves must be defective.
One thing you might test first is to check the voltage at the glow plugs with the switch in both crank and in run. No-glow will also prevent starting and maybe that's the only problem now. So you want to rule that out before pulling the IP (since the engine is already back together). Just hook a voltmeter between engine ground and the rail that connects the glow plugs; then turn the key to on and crank while someone watches the meter.
Based on another post, I'd first remove and inspect the delivery valves. Another member reported broken springs in all delivery valves. That would defeat the "check valve" function of the delivery valve so fuel would just get sucked back as the plunger moves down vs going to the injector.
But if the glow and delivery valves are OK, the IP is the next likely (and costly) suspect. The fact the engine quit suddenly makes me think either something broke or there is an air leak into the diesel fuel feed line.
Yes, the bottom part of the IP is lubed by engine oil. I don't know if there is an oil gallery there or if it's just splash lubed. Your motor has probably sat long enough that the oil dripped off those parts. But the IP tappets are driven by a little cam shaft, just like the valves but it's short with one lobe per injector. The top end (plungers and cylinders) are lubed exclusively by diesel fuel.
You can charge up the battery and then crank until you are sure there is no air left in the lines to the injectors. If you still get good fuel t othe line to one injector but not to another, I'd say the IP or delivery valves must be defective.
One thing you might test first is to check the voltage at the glow plugs with the switch in both crank and in run. No-glow will also prevent starting and maybe that's the only problem now. So you want to rule that out before pulling the IP (since the engine is already back together). Just hook a voltmeter between engine ground and the rail that connects the glow plugs; then turn the key to on and crank while someone watches the meter.
Based on another post, I'd first remove and inspect the delivery valves. Another member reported broken springs in all delivery valves. That would defeat the "check valve" function of the delivery valve so fuel would just get sucked back as the plunger moves down vs going to the injector.
But if the glow and delivery valves are OK, the IP is the next likely (and costly) suspect. The fact the engine quit suddenly makes me think either something broke or there is an air leak into the diesel fuel feed line.
Yes, the bottom part of the IP is lubed by engine oil. I don't know if there is an oil gallery there or if it's just splash lubed. Your motor has probably sat long enough that the oil dripped off those parts. But the IP tappets are driven by a little cam shaft, just like the valves but it's short with one lobe per injector. The top end (plungers and cylinders) are lubed exclusively by diesel fuel.
ritcheyvs
Veteran Member
duplicate deleted
