Clunking in front axle?

[DirtHauler]

I did as instructed, but perhaps I am missing something. I have it in 2WD, and whether I have diff lock on or off, both the front wheels spin in opposite directions. The wheels can be spun in tandem direction to begin with but then one side locks up, and starts to push backwards. Similarly, the shaft spins initially but then stops spinning after a second or two of pushing on the tires. Forgive my ignorance if I am doing it wrong or missing the obvious. I'm accustomed to wrenching on cars but not our tractor just yet.

Do This: Engage 4WD; Raise the front axle; Trans in gear, Park brake on; Engine OFF. Now rotate one of the front wheels (left or right) back and forth. The other wheel will rotate in the opposite direction BUT take note on how much you move one wheel before the other starts to move. The other wheel should start to move almost at the same time (with in about 1/2 inch), if more than that, then you probably have a bad bearing in one of the final gear casings. At the very worst, a broken "spider" gear but I'd put my money on the bad bearing.

 

[skipmarcy]

Just for future knowledge, if you'll use a pair of snap ring pliers and open that ring right next to that sleeve and slide it down the splines a little to let the collar slide further it will let that end of the driveshaft fall free - have your hand on it when you slide the collar. Do the other end and the whole driveshaft and collapsed tube will all come out together. You have to slide the collar probably inch or better to get to the break between the two splined shafts.

I use a little spline grease when re-assembling. You can just about slide the snap ring back into it's groove with your fingers. I use a piece of wood and a hammer to hit that little tab on the tube to seat it back into place before tightening the clamp.

 

[RNeumann]

I did as instructed, but perhaps I am missing something. I have it in 2WD, and whether I have diff lock on or off, both the front wheels spin in opposite directions. The wheels can be spun in tandem direction to begin with but then one side locks up, and starts to push backwards. Similarly, the shaft spins initially but then stops spinning after a second or two of pushing on the tires. Forgive my ignorance if I am doing it wrong or missing the obvious. I'm accustomed to wrenching on cars but not our tractor just yet.

So you missed a few things-

The diff lock only does the rear axle. The wheels rotating in opposite directions is normal.
My last post suggested you had some helpers to hold the other two “ends” so you could feel for any difference between the two sides or feel anything funky in the driveline. Throwing it in 4WD (as suggested) will “lock” one tire and the driveline. That’s an option if you can’t recruit some helpers.
The only reason we are asking you to do this is in an effort to diagnose the source of the noise. The diagnosis should eliminate the “shotgun” approach to flipping a coin and taking one side apart based on heads or tails.

 

[Bud Soda]

Yep, it's the bearing that supports the end of the wheel shaft. When this failed it allowed the bevel gear to "walk" and grind into the final gear case (see metal grindings 3rd photo). The grindings got into all bearings on that side. This "walking" of the bevel gear was the cause of my "lurching" when in 4WD.
If this is the problem with yours, you'll know which side it is because when you pull the lower drain plugs, the side with the issue will have the metal shavings. In the end after replacing the gear case, bearings and seals I was a little over $1,350 for parts and did the repair my self.

DirtHauler. I am repairing mine(t454 tym) when I get the parts next week. It looks like the 2 seals go in back to back? Does the washer(shim) go between the snap ring and bearing, or between the bearing and seal? Mine was torn and I don't have a parts diagram. I wish I caught it earlier. It started making a clunking noise over a month ago. I kept using it until the wheel ran off. Thanks.

 

[DirtHauler]

DirtHauler. I am repairing mine(t454 tym) when I get the parts next week. It looks like the 2 seals go in back to back? Does the washer(shim) go between the snap ring and bearing, or between the bearing and seal? Mine was torn and I don't have a parts diagram. I wish I caught it earlier. It started making a clunking noise over a month ago. I kept using it until the wheel ran off. Thanks.

Not sure which seal(s) you're referring to but here's a parts lay out.

 

[Bud Soda]

Not sure which seal(s) you're referring to but here's a parts lay out.

Thank you.

 

[patchfarm]

Do This: Engage 4WD; Raise the front axle; Trans in gear, Park brake on; Engine OFF. Now rotate one of the front wheels (left or right) back and forth. The other wheel will rotate in the opposite direction BUT take note on how much you move one wheel before the other starts to move. The other wheel should start to move almost at the same time (with in about 1/2 inch), if more than that, then you probably have a bad bearing in one of the final gear casings. At the very worst, a broken "spider" gear but I'd put my money on the bad bearing.

I followed these instructions, and tried rotating both left and right (separately) for comparison. Each side was similar...it took about 3/4"-1" of movement of the wheel I was turning for the other side to kick in. Thoughts?

Should the driveshaft be rotating in this scenario? Because it's not. It jerks a very small amount at first and then does not move while spinning either of the front wheels.

 

[RNeumann]

Everything sounds normal from what you describe. If you are unable to feel or hear any difference in the two sides it sounds like it’s time to at least pull the tires and do the same thing. If you still can’t tell it’s time to flip a coin and take one fine drive off. This all assumes you have isolated the noise to the front axle from your drive tests......

 

[DirtHauler]

Our 4110 has developed a clunking that seems to be coming from the front axle. It only occurs in 4WD, and it occurs roughly every 2 seconds, in forward and reverse. It clunks, and the tractor kind of skips/lunges slightly with each clunk.

I drained the front axle gear oil and did find some metal shavings in it. Thoughts?

Out of curiosity, when you drained the front axle oil, did you do so by removing the left & right plugs on the finals? If so, which side had the metal shavings? And were the shavings large or very fine?

 

[patchfarm]

I drained it from the center drain plug. Perhaps I should drain from each side and see what I find?

 

[RNeumann]

I drained it from the center drain plug. Perhaps I should drain from each side and see what I find?

It may give you a starting point!

 

[DirtHauler]

I drained it from the center drain plug. Perhaps I should drain from each side and see what I find?

If drained it from the center plug, which is directly below the differential, and got a little bit of very fine (like fuzz) metal particles, then that could be considered "normal" as gear wear. Usually anything larger is a sign of pending trouble i.e. bad bearing and/or shims. I'm going to say that 9 times out of 10, your "clunking" is being caused by one of the "finals" having a bad bearing. Tractor front axles take a beating with supporting the weight of the machine then add a loaded bucket and driving down a "wash board" road or across some ruts etc., there's a lot stress & impact on the axle bearings.

 

[patchfarm]

So I just drained about a quart from each side, and there were very fine shavings on each side, more so on the right side (passenger side). But not as much as I would expect if there were real damage. Should I drain it all from each side or drain from the center plug again and see?

 

[melroebobcat]

if I remember right I think on some of these you can only order a front axle as a whole assembly. say the cost at dealer is $2500 the dealers cost is going to be about $1600

 

[DirtHauler]

.............. Should I drain it all from each side or drain from the center plug again and see?

Yes, each side and center again.

 

[radios1]

how old is this tractor?. some fine metal shavings are normal for a new tractor, but if it's older, that should have stopped after it broke in. unless it's very old. a clunking sound, and lurching is a sign of serious wear!. you need to look at the gears inside the axle!.. many times, it could be the universal joints have worn to cause this, disconnecting the universal at the transmission, then rotating the universal with the tires on the ground will usually show a bad joint. there needs to be no play. but metal shavings inside the axle needs to be investigated!..

 

[sd455dan]

how old is this tractor?. some fine metal shavings are normal for a new tractor, but if it's older, that should have stopped after it broke in. unless it's very old. a clunking sound, and lurching is a sign of serious wear!. you need to look at the gears inside the axle!.. many times, it could be the universal joints have worn to cause this, disconnecting the universal at the transmission, then rotating the universal with the tires on the ground will usually show a bad joint. there needs to be no play. but metal shavings inside the axle needs to be investigated!..

edited

maybe i am wrong but
don't think universal joints are used in the majority of under 55 or so HP tractors... even on the front driveline especially if the engine/ trans/ rear axle are married, they are generally splined shafts with slip couplings.


Agree investigation is needed before working the tractor again.

Like posted the outer axle ends appear to utilize bevel gears.

once over ~55 hp the generally considered stronger universal joint equipped axle shafts and outer hubs with planetary gears are more common.

At some point- setting the front axle on jack stands and pulling the tires and then unbolting the outer hubs for a look see may be necessary.... If they use a big O ring seal no new gaskets are really needed if everything is OK.

If there is no bearing failure or broken gear teeth in the outer housings Op at least has eliminated the outer reduction assemblies as the problem. But do understand It is no fun doing this work out in the weather for sure.

As Dirt Hauler said those outer housings/bearings take a beating and are put under a Lot of stress when hauling heavy FEL loads/ tight turns especially when used in 4x4

Eliminating the outer housings as the problem area is important because Loose ball bearings can cause a lot of gear carnage in a hurry due to the ball bearings being made of such hard material my :2cents:

 

[Bud Soda]

if I remember right I think on some of these you can only order a front axle as a whole assembly. say the cost at dealer is $2500 the dealers cost is going to be about $1600

You can get the repair parts from a TYM dealer. I ordered a bearing and seals for mine last week. I hope it less than $100 to do the repair.
I wish I had checked mine instead of kept using it when it started making noise. It firs made a pop a few pops and then didn't do it for a few more hours, Then a few more pops. Then the wheel ran off. Easy repair.
The best thing to do is to take the wheel off, take the front drive case bolts out, slide the hub out and check the bearings. Should not take long at all to check both sides. My tractor was less than 2 years old and less than 300 hours when it went out. I do use the loader a lot moving fire wood ad dirt.

 

[patchfarm]

Drained the remainder from the center plug and got about 3x as much shavings, and discernably larger. Should I assume that means the spider gear is going or shot? I have both wheels off anyways to get my pan under the side plugs to drain so I could pull the hubs to check the final gears but maybe not worth it knowing that most of the shavings are from center? Easy way to check the spider gear?

 

[RNeumann]

I’ll place a bet it isn’t the diff. 100:1 it’s not those gears. If you can’t figure out what side to take apart, flip a coin and take the final drive off as described above by Bud