Considering a smaller tractor to avoid Tier 4 emissions difficulties

[jyoutz]

Thanks again for all the input!

Really manhandling the trees I have some trees in the 30+" area that I would like to drag in fairly lengthy pieces. I'll also want to lift the near end as Jeff suggests (never seen that drawbar - will check it out; was considering a heavy duty boom). How long of a 30" bigleaf maple log do those of you with tree-dragging experience reckon I can pull? I'd like to cut some beams to use in timber framing or post and beam construction. I can quarter them as they get longer if I cannot pull them whole. This use (and pushing logs around with the loader or grapple) are one of the primary reasons I am looking beyond the SCUTs into the CUTs.

You should be looking at 45-50+ hp and more importantly a tractor with a bare weight exceeding 3500 pounds for those uses.

 

[jyoutz]

that's why I bought a low hr (300) used large tractor to avoid the government mandated crap !

I enjoy not sucking smoke and fumes and not getting a sinus headache with my tier 4 tractor.

 

[jyoutz]

Splitters are hydraulically operated on tractors. Tractor hydruallic flows are low. Better a 110 volt or faster 220 volt electric/hydraullic splitter; simpler, cheaper.
VIDEO: electric log splitters - YouTube
VENDERS: electric log splitters for sale - Google Search

PTO Chippers are fine year one. Year two and later too much maintenance. Always hazardous. Most "chippers" convert to "burners". My history. I had a high end Wallenstein.

Chippers work a little better with a single type of wood, for which the blade(s) can be optimally adjusted. Christmas tree farmers like them better than residential users.

My L3560 has 28 PTO horsepower. Not enough PTO power to make chipping attractive relative to burning.

I’m a forester and see woods operations on a daily basis. On every forestry project that involves chipping, I invariably see the chipper broken down in the woods, no matter how new the equipment. I’m talking about units costing $100-200k plus. We always joke about guessing how many days or acres between breakdowns. Chippers are inherently problematic. I would never buy one, just rent it.

 

[Tomtint]

I was at my local Bota dealer the other day picking up the RTV after it was serviced. Started talking with the salesmen about the lack of new tractors on the lot, He asked about my L3700SU and said the pre emissions tractors are still preferred by farmers around here and that I could probably get 25-26k for my TLB set up... I think that's all the money.. but supply and demand rules I guess.

 

[MHarryE]

People said this about cars and trucks 30 years ago, yet modern vehicles are more reliable than those 1970s vehicles that I learned to drive and repair.

I began doing maintenance on our cars and trucks in the 50s. Always changing plugs points, removing lead and carbon deposits. Carbs - dad had them sitting in shelves to clean, rebuild, swap to get farm trucks, tractors going. On my own in the 70s, less than 10pm got, changing fuel pumps worn out camshafts from pumping, points and plugs at 8,000 miles. Spend a day prepping car for a 500 mile round trip to the big city. Yah, the good old emissions free days. By 1990 I had a 750 mile weekly commute but carbs were gone, plugs at 100,00. Now 40 mpg on my BMW SUV vs 10 mpg on my carbureted ‘70 Nova, service once a year covered by BMW vs at least one weekend monthly spent on the Nova and pickup. Yah, I remember the good old emissions free days. Now back to my farming roots in my retirement. My tractors are all T4 and I can keep up in my old age but my nephew, dairy farmer, keeps one guy full time just taking care of day to day, and a mechanic who specializes on keeping old tractors going doing the major repairs. And at least 2 tractors for every chore except his main feeding tractor. It’s Tier 4 with all the related emissions stuff and is the one used every day whether it’s 35 below or 90. Plug he block heater in when he begins milking so it will start when feeding time comes. My end of the story.

 

[Hay Dude]

I have been prepping to sell one of my pre emissions tractors and already the word is on the street. Ive had 3 calls so far and one of the first questions asked “is it emissions?” And when I say ”no” they have all been happy to hear it. Now this is a cab tractor, so maybe its a selling point on open station?

 

[hornett22]

I bought to avoid emissions and don't regret it one bit. I've had zero issues in over 700 hours.

I'm often on mine all day and don't get headaches or even smell the exhaust and I move a lot of trees.

 

[rScotty]

People said this about cars and trucks 30 years ago, yet modern vehicles are more reliable than those 1970s vehicles that I learned to drive and repair.

I think you are right about that. But "more reliable" is still a long ways fro being "completely reliable".

Both the modern and the those 30 year old and older vehicles will need repair.
The differnce is that the older ones were built to be owner-repaired while the modern ones are not.

Designing modern vehicles to be unrepairable by owners is a deliberate policy of modern self-centered manufacturing. It increases profit to the manufacturer and his dealers with absolutely no advantage to the owner.

It could have been done differently. I'm surprised that no one has.
rScotty

 

[IndyJay]

People said this about cars and trucks 30 years ago, yet modern vehicles are more reliable than those 1970s vehicles that I learned to drive and repair.

My 73 Nova was easy to work on... points and plugs, replacing water pumps, alternators, distributors was easy and seemed to be done fairly regularly. I remember in the mid-80's when my wife and I moved to "the country" and we bought a Toyota for better mileage (we had a 100+ mile round trip to work in "the city" everyday). My Dad popped the hood on the Toyota and said, "Oh my God, you'll never be able to work on this thing. You can't even get to anything with all these hoses and everything. And that poor little engine will not last a year with the miles you guys are putting on it.

We drove that little car with little more than routine maintenance of fluids and wear items. We sold it with over 300k miles on it and the person who bought it drove it from Ohio to Florida and back twice with no problems. We have had similar experience with all of our cars since.

Yes, those old GM's sure were easy to work on.

 

[Hay Dude]

I think you are right about that. But "more reliable" is still a long ways fro being "completely reliable".

Both the modern and the those 30 year old and older vehicles will need repair.
The differnce is that the older ones were built to be owner-repaired while the modern ones are not.

Designing modern vehicles to be unrepairable by owners is a deliberate policy of modern self-centered manufacturing. It increases profit to the manufacturer and his dealers with absolutely no advantage to the owner.

It could have been done differently. I'm surprised that no one has.
rScotty

Yep, and furthermore, since you are less likely to fix yourself, you spend a lot more $ at the dealer AND the “extended warranty“ business has become a very lucrative source of income to the manufacturers.

These people have this all figured out. Dont beat yourself up about it, you have kids to raise, sports to coach, job to perform. They have analysts and actuaries to crunch numbers and design paths to higher and higher profitability.

 

[jyoutz]

My 73 Nova was easy to work on... points and plugs, replacing water pumps, alternators, distributors was easy and seemed to be done fairly regularly. I remember in the mid-80's when my wife and I moved to "the country" and we bought a Toyota for better mileage (we had a 100+ mile round trip to work in "the city" everyday). My Dad popped the hood on the Toyota and said, "Oh my God, you'll never be able to work on this thing. You can't even get to anything with all these hoses and everything. And that poor little engine will not last a year with the miles you guys are putting on it.

We drove that little car with little more than routine maintenance of fluids and wear items. We sold it with over 300k miles on it and the person who bought it drove it from Ohio to Florida and back twice with no problems. We have had similar experience with all of our cars since.

Yes, those old GM's sure were easy to work on.

Yes, I had a 1973 Nova. Easy to work on and I did that frequently.

 

[jyoutz]

I think you are right about that. But "more reliable" is still a long ways fro being "completely reliable".

Both the modern and the those 30 year old and older vehicles will need repair.
The differnce is that the older ones were built to be owner-repaired while the modern ones are not.

Designing modern vehicles to be unrepairable by owners is a deliberate policy of modern self-centered manufacturing. It increases profit to the manufacturer and his dealers with absolutely no advantage to the owner.

It could have been done differently. I'm surprised that no one has.
rScotty

You are correct that everything needs repairs eventually and modern cars are very difficult for the owner to do that. I only change oil and filter; the rest goes to the mechanic. But I seldom need to have my modern vehicles repaired either. I remember constantly doing points, condensers, plugs, wires, brakes, carburetor kits, etc on my 1970s vehicles. I’ll take the modern vehicles any day and leave the wrenching to the mechanics.

 

[bdhsfz6]

My 73 Nova was easy to work on... points and plugs, replacing water pumps, alternators, distributors was easy and seemed to be done fairly regularly. I remember in the mid-80's when my wife and I moved to "the country" and we bought a Toyota for better mileage (we had a 100+ mile round trip to work in "the city" everyday). My Dad popped the hood on the Toyota and said, "Oh my God, you'll never be able to work on this thing. You can't even get to anything with all these hoses and everything. And that poor little engine will not last a year with the miles you guys are putting on it.

We drove that little car with little more than routine maintenance of fluids and wear items. We sold it with over 300k miles on it and the person who bought it drove it from Ohio to Florida and back twice with no problems. We have had similar experience with all of our cars since.

Yes, those old GM's sure were easy to work on.

I put 240K miles on my old 72 Nova. Gas got too expensive in the 80's so I had to sell it. It was indeed a dream to work on with no special tools or computers required.

As easy as it was to work on, it can't compare with my mothers old 61 Chevy Biscayne 6 cyl. station wagon. I could stand in the engine compartment with my feet on the ground to change the plugs.

 

[5030]

No problem here with new vehicles and issue. All you need is a good (expensive) scan tool. The Autel I have even tells you what the failed part is. Not that much fails. Automotive emissions are pretty well sorted out today. Not so with tractors and big trucks.

 

[jyoutz]

I put 240K miles on my old 72 Nova. Gas got too expensive in the 80's so I had to sell it. It was indeed a dream to work on with no special tools or computers required.

As easy as it was to work on, it can't compare with my mothers old 61 Chevy Biscayne 6 cyl. station wagon. I could stand in the engine compartment with my feet on the ground to change the plugs.

And you had to change them frequently, not at 100k miles like modern cars.

 

[RalphVa]

Easiest car in the world to work on was our 1983 240D Benz. If it was turbo, we'd probably still have it. Just didn't have enough hp to make it up Afton mountain without gearing down if someone slowed us up. As it was, kept it for 25 years into its 26th year (bought when 1 year old and not a mark on it). Wife loved that car. One of the last ones that you could sit in the driver's seat and see all 4 corners of the car. Don't think you can do that on any car now. One reason why people get SUVs; I guess.

I agree with getting tractor below Tier 4. Unless you're doing Ag type work in big fields, I really do not see the need for anyone to need more than 18-26 hp. Think most just buy big and never rev their engines much, thinking it's too hard on them to rev them (just because they're noisy),

 

[5030]

I agree with getting tractor below Tier 4. Unless you're doing Ag type work in big fields, I really do not see the need for anyone to need more than 18-26 hp. Think most just buy big and never rev their engines much, thinking it's too hard on them to rev them (just because they're noisy),

Fine for a 'hobby type machine as in CUT or Sub CUT but for me, anything below 60 pto horses is a non starter. I need at least 50 minimum to run my hay tools and more is always good. The more I have, the less the engines have to work, consequently, they last longer.

I feel totally inadequate on any tractor where the implements I use are larger than the tractor itself.

 

[rScotty]

You are correct that everything needs repairs eventually and modern cars are very difficult for the owner to do that. I only change oil and filter; the rest goes to the mechanic. But I seldom need to have my modern vehicles repaired either. I remember constantly doing points, condensers, plugs, wires, brakes, carburetor kits, etc on my 1970s vehicles. I’ll take the modern vehicles any day and leave the wrenching to the mechanics.

And the difference between what we are saying is that I don't agree that it should be or needs to be an either/or situation. I want both, both the better reliability and the option to repair it myself if I prefer.

Like you, I tend to leave the wrenching to the mechanics these days.

But that's just me. Going beyond what I want, I think that learning how to build and repair things is important. I think they lead to education and self-sufficiency - which ultimately benefits everyone.

The manufacturers I want to support are those who make an effort beyond just making profit.

rScotty

 

[Blue Mule]

A 25 HP tractor with gear drive might work for some uses. But I found it is not nearly enough power for a hydro tractor. No emissions doesn't matter if I can't work in the gear range I want.

 

[ericm979]

While I worked on a lot of vehicles back in the old days there's a lot of advantages to new ones. Cars and trucks and some tractors have OBD2 ports and will tell you what's wrong! That's so much better than the '60s and '70s. Computers are far more reliable than mechanical parts that wear out. I've not had to replace or adjust or clean points for a long time.

I also enjoy breathing cleaner air. My old pre emissions tractor would stink up the barn long before I was done changing implements. I can barely smell the new one and it's got 3x the power.

If you're going to be moving logs, especially with a grapple, you will want a tractor big enough to have a good loader lift capacity and heavy enough to carry that weight safely. My Branson is heavy for its power and has Rimguard in the rear tires. With a 550lb box blade on the back the rear tires get light when carrying a heavy log in the grapple. I could use a heavier ballast. A tractor like a Kubota L3901 weighs significantly less than the Branson and would not be able to move the same weight of logs with the grapple.

If you're going to be moving saw logs you will probably be dragging them as they will be too wide (and if they are big, too heavy) to carry sideways in the grapple. There are various types of log dollies that hold up one end or the whole log to keep it out of the dirt.