Does anyone have Air springs to keep truck from squating

HenryIV · Oct 15, 2015

willy851 said:
I just purchased a new L4701 with loader and backhoe and my F150 didn't appreciate the load. The rear end dropped 6" and I barely fit the tractor on the trailer. I don't think I exceeded the tongue weight, but I didn't have much suspension left.
The trailer is 20' long with a 10K limit. The tractor weighs just under 5K 3300 for tractor, 700 for loader and 900 for backhoe.
I can't purchase a fifth wheel trailer, so I need to make this trailer work. I am looking into beefing up the suspension, to keep it from dropping too much.

Thanks

Your trailer is what carries the load.
1. Know the weight of the load and make sure the tires can support that load. 3500lbs and up is usually a two axle job with surge brakes.
2. Make sure the brakes can stop the load. A F150 should do 7000 lbs at 55mph on level grade. Don't forget to add the trailer weight.
3. Know the center of gravity for that load. about 350 lbs of tongue weight is the max I would go on a 1/2 ton truck. 200-250 would be better How do you estimate the tongue weight without a scale? The spring rate for your truck should be fairly flat. Have a buddy who weighs 200lb or so step onto the unloaded hitch and measure the change with a tape measure. Use that ratio of lbs to inches to measure the deflection when you put the trailer on the truck. Too much tongue weight makes the front too light for good steering control. Too little tongue weight makes the trailer swerve back and forth at speed. Take the time to adjust and secure that load to get the tongue weight into that 200-250 range. Use chains and binders. I did #7600+ with my 1/2 ton Suburban at 60mph, I have a little more wheelbase, but you get the idea. Be patient and don't get carried away with your success and start testing the max speed. Use the cruise control. No overdrive. maintain spacing.
4. Do what you must to have a level trailer.
5. Make sure your brake shoes and parking brake shoes are in top shape.

I have a little experience with the way Ford and GM designs, test and builds trucks. You are at the upper limit. You can do it but you'e be more comfortable with a 3/4 ton truck. I wouldn't feed 7000 lbs to a 1/2 ton day in and day out and expect good things for the trans, not in the hills where I live anyway. My buddy has a F150 and he does his boat and horse trailer with it and he uses an electronic gadget for the brakes. Good luck!

gladehound · Oct 15, 2015

I used to have a 1999.5 Ford F-250 7.3TD. The rear springs were too soft. I added firestone airbags. They worked great for years, but eventually my factory springs broke. They cracked on both sides, exactly where the U-bolt that held the airbags went around them. I ripped out the bags and the springs (springs were only rated for 4600 combined [2300x2]) and put in a set that was rated at 7200 combined. To my surprise, the truck rode better with the heavier springs. It also sat 2-3" inches higher in the back. I believe it rode better because it would almost never hit the helper spring. The factory springs were on the helper all the time and had much less travel.

If I did it all over I would definitely go with the replacement springs instead of the air bags. Far better ride.

gladehound · Oct 15, 2015

HenryIV said:
I have a little experience with the way Ford and GM designs, test and builds trucks. You are at the upper limit. You can do it but you'e be more comfortable with a 3/4 ton truck. I wouldn't feed 7000 lbs to a 1/2 ton day in and day out and expect good things for the trans, not in the hills where I live anyway. My buddy has a F150 and he does his boat and horse trailer with it and he uses an electronic gadget for the brakes. Good luck!

I occasionally (a few times a year) tow 9,000+ pounds with a 2011 Jeep Grand Cherokee. It does surprisingly well with this load. I do avoid hilly routes to be mindful of the transmission and I watch the trans temp. I've seen 205 F max on a long hill on a 90 degree day. It is very picky about tongue weight. It likes ~800 pounds. Less than that and the trailer sways. I've never gone with more tongue weight than that. I don't think the front end getting light is a real concern with my GC or with a 1/2 ton. If you do the math, 800 pounds of tongue weight can be counteracted by a passenger in the front seat. Not a real issue. The real issue is negative tongue weight when going over bumps so you need a good amount of tongue weight.

Surprisingly, once dialed in, I think the Jeep would handle any emergency maneuvers better with 9000 pounds in tow than my old F-250 did. But the jeep is very picky about proper set up and the F-250 is not. I'm not saying the Jeep is a better tow vehicle - no way. It's just a superior handling vehicle and with a well balanced load and perfectly dialed in brakes that trailer follows very nicely.

Is this load abusive on the Jeep? probably. But it is out of warrantee and it's only 3-4 times a year and usually less than 10 miles. So I doubt it will have much impact on longevity.

In the picture below the jeep and trailer are level with 800 pounds of tongue weight. The Jeep has some kind of hydraulic self leveling struts in the rear from the factory and they seem to handle the weight fine. Based on the door sticker GAWRs the Jeep can legally take its entire 1300 pound max pay load on the rear wheels. As long as the weight ratings work on the OPs truck, I would think some sort of helper / replacement springs in the rear would be enough for occasional heavy hauling. (along with well dialed in trailer brakes!)

aczlan · Oct 16, 2015

HenryIV said:
Your trailer is what carries the load.
1. Know the weight of the load and make sure the tires can support that load. 3500lbs and up is usually a two axle job with surge brakes.
2. Make sure the brakes can stop the load. A F150 should do 7000 lbs at 55mph on level grade. Don't forget to add the trailer weight.
3. Know the center of gravity for that load. about 350 lbs of tongue weight is the max I would go on a 1/2 ton truck. 200-250 would be better How do you estimate the tongue weight without a scale? The spring rate for your truck should be fairly flat. Have a buddy who weighs 200lb or so step onto the unloaded hitch and measure the change with a tape measure. Use that ratio of lbs to inches to measure the deflection when you put the trailer on the truck. Too much tongue weight makes the front too light for good steering control. Too little tongue weight makes the trailer swerve back and forth at speed. Take the time to adjust and secure that load to get the tongue weight into that 200-250 range. Use chains and binders. I did #7600+ with my 1/2 ton Suburban at 60mph, I have a little more wheelbase, but you get the idea. Be patient and don't get carried away with your success and start testing the max speed. Use the cruise control. No overdrive. maintain spacing.
4. Do what you must to have a level trailer.
5. Make sure your brake shoes and parking brake shoes are in top shape.

With a 7000# load (tractor plus trailer), I would want to see 400# to 700# of tongue weight, not 200-250#. 10% tongue weight is what is recommended by most. With the OP's truck, he probably wants to see the truck's rear end drop 3-5" when loaded.

Aaron Z

gladehound · Oct 16, 2015

aczlan said:
With a 7000# load (tractor plus trailer), I would want to see 400# to 700# of tongue weight, not 200-250#. 10% tongue weight is what is recommended by most.
Aaron Z

Completely agree! At least I know my trailer would be scary to drive with only 250# of tongue weight. The lightest I've ever gone is 400# tongue weight and I didn't like how it handled. At 800# it handles beautifully! I'd run as much tongue weight as the truck can handle.

crashz · Oct 16, 2015

3rd

Without at least 10% on the hitch, my equipment trailer sways and bucks like mad. Add in the "slop" of a pintle hitch and its unbearable. My 3/4ton tows best with enough tongue weight to level it. That is approximately 1000lbs or almost 20% of my typical load (tractor or SS). But my trailer tongue looks to be stressed at that weight so splitting the difference is the best compromise.

I never tried a weight distributing hitch on my 1/2 ton because I always expected to upgrade the truck and all of our trailers have pintle hitches. But I believe that would be a best option for a softly sprung truck within its tow and weight limits. That plus some good quality Load C or D truck tires (1/2 ton tires get squishy even within their load range) will help a lot.

FredH · Oct 16, 2015

This on a 2006 Dodge 2500 Quad cab , long bed with 4 wheel drive and Auto Trans.

Amazon.com: Air Lift 88295 LoadLifter 5000 Ultimate Air Spring Kit with Internal Jounce Bumper: Automotive

Pull a 2015 Big Tex LX14 dump trailer . Accidently loaded over 10,000# of Granite in trailer a few weeks ago and it still pulled Great . Went From 10,800 gross empty to over 21,000 loaded . Fortunately only had to go maybe 7 or so Flat miles to my Moms from the rock place were I got loaded . ( And Dang , That Big Tex Dumped the load also :thumbsup: ) .

Minimum I run pressure is 20 lbs. . Cannot Run Them without air , voids warranty . Thus it will stiffen a little bit when empty , but run them up to 80 - 85 loaded and it rides Great . Use to run actual overload springs on old F250 , But they are Not adjustable thus constant stiff ride .

Fred H.

RKJeepXJ · Oct 16, 2015

I run bags on my ram 1500.... Huge difference in sagging over the stock rear coils. The coils ride great but drop 2-3 inches with 500 lbs on the hitch. Here's the most load I've done.... Figure it's about 11,500lbs trailer and all with my bags at max 30psi. Only went about 8 miles. Had plenty of power and didn't stop horribly. Not sure id do it a lot though.

KubotaToy · Oct 17, 2015

gladehound said:
At least I know my trailer would be scary to drive with only 250# of tongue weight. The lightest I've ever gone is 400# tongue weight and I didn't like how it handled. At 800# it handles beautifully! I'd run as much tongue weight as the truck can handle.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: What he said...
I have a set of mechanical scales that I use to set up all my trailers and loads, I mark the trailer for tractor placement and tongue weight. I almost always use what the manufacturer recommends for tongue weight except for a 14K gooseneck I have, it seems to like about 15% on the truck. I can tell you from experience, a F150 with 250# on the hitch with a 7000# trailer load would have more back and forth than two folks doing the Shenandoah Waltz.

tcartwri · Oct 17, 2015

Unladen tongue weight on a 20' 10K equipment trailer is probably already 700lbs... lol.

I have air 1000's in my RAM and at 30 psi 700 lbs of tongue weight will drop it about two inches. I would be shooting for no less than 1000 lbs on the OP's combination.

Sorry, shouldn't have spoken without doing the math. Typical 20' trailer is about 2300 lbs. With a 24" axle set back the tongue weight would be approx 350 lbs empty.

Panik · Oct 17, 2015

HenryIV said:
I have a little experience with the way Ford and GM designs, test and builds trucks. You are at the upper limit. You can do it but you'e be more comfortable with a 3/4 ton truck. I wouldn't feed 7000 lbs to a 1/2 ton day in and day out and expect good things for the trans, not in the hills where I live anyway. My buddy has a F150 and he does his boat and horse trailer with it and he uses an electronic gadget for the brakes. Good luck!

Hey Henry, where are you at in NW Ga? Purely, out of curiosity as I'm in Floyd county. Love living in the foothills!

crashz said:
I never tried a weight distributing hitch on my 1/2 ton because I always expected to upgrade the truck and all of our trailers have pintle hitches. But I believe that would be a best option for a softly sprung truck within its tow and weight limits. That plus some good quality Load C or D truck tires (1/2 ton tires get squishy even within their load range) will help a lot.

Those two things right there have made the biggest difference in the handling characteristics of my GMC 1500. I upgraded from passenger tires to LT "E" range and installed a set of Load Lifter 5000's. I have towed 8K with this set up and it honestly feels as stable as the 3/4 tons I used to tow with for work. Big caveat - if I were to do it again I would strongly consider getting a weight distributing hitch first.

Diamondpilot · Oct 17, 2015

crashz said:
3rd

Without at least 10% on the hitch, my equipment trailer sways and bucks like mad. Add in the "slop" of a pintle hitch and its unbearable. My 3/4ton tows best with enough tongue weight to level it. That is approximately 1000lbs or almost 20% of my typical load (tractor or SS). But my trailer tongue looks to be stressed at that weight so splitting the difference is the best compromise.

I never tried a weight distributing hitch on my 1/2 ton because I always expected to upgrade the truck and all of our trailers have pintle hitches. But I believe that would be a best option for a softly sprung truck within its tow and weight limits. That plus some good quality Load C or D truck tires (1/2 ton tires get squishy even within their load range) will help a lot.

I hate pintle hitches with a passion. I had to tow a 12K trailer last week with one. Never again....

Chris

JCByrd24 · Oct 18, 2015

It has been recommended over and over in the thread, but I think only once was it mentioned that it is likely required that the OP has a WD hitch in this case to be legal. My 06 Silverado 1500 is my only baseline but I'm assuming the f150 is similar. My factory hitch has a rating of only 5000lbs trailer and 500lb tongue without WD. The GM published tow guide specifically states the WD and sway control is required on all trailers over 5000lbs. Air bags do not transfer weight back to the front wheels (or the front bolts holding the trailer hitch on the truck) like WD does. Since WD cost about the same as air bags and makes it legal, I would go that route. It will be an easier install as well.

Diamondpilot · Oct 19, 2015

JCByrd24 said:
It has been recommended over and over in the thread, but I think only once was it mentioned that it is likely required that the OP has a WD hitch in this case to be legal. My 06 Silverado 1500 is my only baseline but I'm assuming the f150 is similar. My factory hitch has a rating of only 5000lbs trailer and 500lb tongue without WD. The GM published tow guide specifically states the WD and sway control is required on all trailers over 5000lbs. Air bags do not transfer weight back to the front wheels (or the front bolts holding the trailer hitch on the truck) like WD does. Since WD cost about the same as air bags and makes it legal, I would go that route. It will be an easier install as well.

You are correct. I mentioned a WD hitch early on. It will be the best and only legal fix to his problem.

Chris

tman1020 · Oct 19, 2015

A weight distribution hitch is required to safely and legally haul the weight you mentioned. A properly equipped F1 50 depending on the year should be able to handle that weight without problem. The airbags probably won't be needed once you get the weight distribution hitch. However the airbags can have some nice benefits but it is the wrong way to achieve what you were trying to accomplish in the situation. Start with the hitch then go from there.

MossRoad · Oct 19, 2015

OK, novice towing question here....

If your truck's hitch is rated at 5000# how will a weight distributing hitch increase that? Doesn't it just slip into the 5000# receiver? If you're still towing more than 5000# it would seem you'd still be out of spec?

MossRoad · Oct 19, 2015

OK, novice towing question here....

If your truck's hitch is rated at 5000# how will a weight distributing hitch increase that? Doesn't it just slip into the 5000# receiver? If you're still towing more than 5000# it would seem you'd still be out of spec?