Firewood processor build thread

[kiotiken]

I wouldn't worry about the 1/2" power beyond port. A single 1/2" fitting won't reduce your cycle time... Just creates a bit more friction/heat. The valves CV rating or pressure drop takes into account fitting sizes.

Flow coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ten gallon tanks does seem small. If things get too hot it might be more cost effective to add a oil cooler instead of a bigger tank and more fluid.

I heard back from the hydraulic shop and they're telling me the radiator required to handle the amount of heat I'm generating (I told them the pump size, tank size, engine size and they somehow came up with a number) would cost $2700. Now, it's an expensive place to go shopping for sure, but even the rad from Princess Auto is almost $400 and I have no idea if it can handle the heat load I'd put on it. I'm not able to find other options for oil coolers, the surplus center doesn't seem to have them and none of the others I find on line seem like they're going to work. I think the easiest thing to do it just add a bigger tank.

 

[mikefromnh]

I heard back from the hydraulic shop and they're telling me the radiator required to handle the amount of heat I'm generating (I told them the pump size, tank size, engine size and they somehow came up with a number) would cost $2700. Now, it's an expensive place to go shopping for sure, but even the rad from Princess Auto is almost $400 and I have no idea if it can handle the heat load I'd put on it. I'm not able to find other options for oil coolers, the surplus center doesn't seem to have them and none of the others I find on line seem like they're going to work. I think the easiest thing to do it just add a bigger tank.

Cool Line D10 12 Oil Cooler 12 VDC 2 30 GPM 0 08 HP | eBay

Cool Line D16 12 Oil Cooler 12 VDC 4 50 GPM 0 19 HP | eBay

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

This is what I calculated that I'd need on my system if I were to run a 28 gpm pump and a 17 gpm pump with 20 gallons of hydraulic fluid in the reservoir.

Thermal Transfer Oil Coolers MA Series | MAX GPM 40-75 MA-12-2-4A OIL COOLER 12V MTR 258-327

Has the 12v fan and everything for $360

If you want I can try to dig out my data sheets and calculations to see what you might need. We figured that the cooler would pay for itself after the first fluid change.
I can only imagine that your fluid temps will go up from there in the summer months!

 

[mikefromnh]

This is what I calculated that I'd need on my system if I were to run a 28 gpm pump and a 17 gpm pump with 20 gallons of hydraulic fluid in the reservoir.

Thermal Transfer Oil Coolers MA Series | MAX GPM 40-75 MA-12-2-4A OIL COOLER 12V MTR 258-327

Has the 12v fan and everything for $360

If you want I can try to dig out my data sheets and calculations to see what you might need. We figured that the cooler would pay for itself after the first fluid change.
I can only imagine that your fluid temps will go up from there in the summer months!

I was going to post that one but the description states it's 24vdc but it says 12v as well...probably a typo.

 

[kiotiken]

This is what I calculated that I'd need on my system if I were to run a 28 gpm pump and a 17 gpm pump with 20 gallons of hydraulic fluid in the reservoir.

Thermal Transfer Oil Coolers MA Series | MAX GPM 40-75 MA-12-2-4A OIL COOLER 12V MTR 258-327

Has the 12v fan and everything for $360

If you want I can try to dig out my data sheets and calculations to see what you might need. We figured that the cooler would pay for itself after the first fluid change.
I can only imagine that your fluid temps will go up from there in the summer months!

I guess that's another $200 in oil to go from 10 gallon to 30 gallon tank, isshh, it never ends. I'm not convinced my little 15 hp produces enough power to run a 12v fan and I'm only using a lawn tractor battery. I could change that for a deep cycle battery, but I still think it would just get run down. I have no idea how many amps the engine is putting out, but I'm betting it's not much. The site you posted has a 115v option, but it's back to the $900 range. I need to think this through a little more.

 

[mikefromnh]

You could put the fan on a snap switch so it's only running when the fluid gets hot. Painting your tank and cylinders white will also help a little bit if they are in direct sunlight.

The bigger tank is probably the best solution...

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

The site you posted has a 115v option, but it's back to the $900 range.

If you have 115v available you could always hook up a battery changer while running the processor.
I agree that the charging system on a little engine would probably not keep up with the fan. We are hoping that our 2 engines would be able to keep up with it if we decide to go with the cooler.
And judging from what you've experienced we will likely have to unless we want to have 40 or 50 gal of fluid.

 

[aczlan]

Thats a 13.78x11.73 radiator, 161 square inches of space. Look for an aluminum tank radiator that is at least as big (some links below):
Aluminum tank car radiator $59: Amazon.com: YourRadiator RD21290A - New All Aluminum Radiator: Automotive (13 3/4x13 11/16, 188 square inches)
12" Fan $21: Amazon.com: Rev9Power Rev9_FAN12; Universal Electric Radiator Slim Fan - 12 In. Diameter: Automotive
Thermostat to power fan $17: Amazon.com: Hayden Automotive 3653 Economy Adjustable Thermostatic Fan Control: Automotive

Alternatively (for the fan), hit up a junkyard and pull the fan and fan relay out of a Volvo 700, 800, 900, 70, 90 or 80 series made between 1993 and 2001. That will get you a 2 speed fan and relay to control it (just need a temp sensor to tell it when to kick into high).
As for amps, what size are the wires coming out of the stator?

Aaron Z

 

[Wild Bill the 2nd]

Aluminum tank car radiator $59: Amazon.com: YourRadiator RD21290A - New All Aluminum Radiator: Automotive (13 3/4x13 11/16, 188 square inches)

Can you use an automotive radiator? I was thinking that potential pressures that you'd have in the return line would be greater than what an automotive radiator would safely handle.

 

[Scooby074]

The old rule of thumb was to size the tank approx 3x the average flow. Considering that your processor is not going to run all the time (ie: commercial) you could probably get away with approx 40gal vs. the 50 via the rule of thumb calculation. No matter how you slice it, 10gal is way on the small side. Its going to require quite a cooling system to work with a 10gal reservoir, and likely explains the high cost quote from the local hyd shop. Cheapest option would be going to a considerably larger tank and adding oil and maybe a cheaper ebay cooler to help drop temps if needed at a later time.

 

[Scooby074]

Can you use an automotive radiator? I was thinking that potential pressures that you'd have in the return line would be greater than what an automotive radiator would safely handle.

I wouldnt use an automotive rad.

 

[aczlan]

I wouldnt use an automotive rad.

Why not? Its an all aluminum radiator in a line that would be going from a 3/4" line attached with hose clamps View attachment 407504
to a 1 1/8" radiator (and then back into the tank preferable with a larger hose). It should be well under the 25-30PSI that is normal for a car such as that radiator was intended for.
The Bailey radiator has a 30PSI pressure relief bypass, so if you are really worried about it, put a boiler pressure relief in there.

Aaron Z

 

[Scooby074]

Why not? Its an all aluminum radiator in a line that would be going from a 3/4" line attached with hose clamps View attachment 407504
to a 1 1/8" radiator (and then back into the tank preferable with a larger hose). It should be well under the 25-30PSI that is normal for a car such as that radiator was intended for.
The Bailey radiator has a 30PSI pressure relief bypass, so if you are really worried about it, put a boiler pressure relief in there.

Aaron Z

Pressure spikes. Considerably more than 30psi are possible.

 

[mikefromnh]

You can get radiators with a 30 psi relief bypass.

 

[muddstopper]

I dont know what psi the newer radiators are rated for, the old ones usually had a cap rated for around 14psi. Unrestricted Return line hydraulic pressure can hit 250psi pretty easily. Especially if the return filter is after the cooler. I would look at some of the old Jacobson mowers in the bone yard and try to rob a hydraulic oil cooler off of one of those. I would also look on ebay, sometimes you can find new/obsolete stock for a fraction of new. In all honesty, those new car radiators now have plastic endcaps and a rubber Oring to keep them from leaking. I would be afraid if the pressure didnt burst the radiator, the hydraulic fluid might eat up the oil ring and cause a leak.

 

[kiotiken]

Interesting ideas about rads but at this point, I'm going to try and avoid using one. Having started this project without any experience with hydraulics, I trusted what I was told when I bought all the parts. I shake my head now because some of the issues I've had seem so obvious now, including the tank size, but at the time, I didn't think twice about what I was told. The tank size is just wrong, plain and simple. Exactly how big is should be is up to some debate since the machine is using hydraulics intermittently and it's a two stage pump but no matter how you slice it, everything I've read says it's way to small. So I'm going to start by changing the tank and hopefully that will allow me to avoid having to add any type of rad.

So, I'm almost 100% decided at this point to buy the tank I posted a link to earlier. It's 37 gallon capacity with 30 gallon of usable fluid capacity. I priced out building my own tank and I'd save about $100 doing it, I'm just not sure in the end it's worth the time I'd spend doing it. It also doesn't include any consumables for welding/cleaning or paint, so in the end how much would I really save?

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

I think you'll be much happier with that tank, I agree with the sizing. Everything I've found says tank size should be equal to pump capacity or greater.

At some point, there should be enough fluid capacity that a cooler is unnecessary. I'd double check on the sizing that there is no doubt it will be enough. I'd hate to see you see you still have to add a cooler later with all you've been thru

 

[mikefromnh]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not, but can you keep the 10 gallon tank in place and add the 37 gallon tank in paralell?

 

[kiotiken]

I think you'll be much happier with that tank, I agree with the sizing. Everything I've found says tank size should be equal to pump capacity or greater.

At some point, there should be enough fluid capacity that a cooler is unnecessary. I'd double check on the sizing that there is no doubt it will be enough. I'd hate to see you see you still have to add a cooler later with all you've been thru

I think it would get tossed in behind the shed for a couple years while I cooled off if that happened :laughing:

 

[kiotiken]

I'm not sure if it's a good idea or not, but can you keep the 10 gallon tank in place and add the 37 gallon tank in paralell?

hmmmm... interesting idea. I really don't know if that could be done. I have two 55 gallon barrels mounted on the back of my box blade, I use it as a zamboni in the winter for my rink. The two tanks are joined together with 1.5" pipe and go to the water bar on the bottom. When you attach a garden hose to one tank, the water level in that tank will stay much higher than the water level in the other tank. Of course, I'm attaching the hose to the air vent of the first barrel, not sure if the air vent on the 10 gallon tank (which would be the first tank) would make any difference.